SAM out classing all other DPS

[Fyce]

Conclusion: NIN raid dps contribution is higher than SAM raid dps contribution at 80 and 90 percentiles. The same calculations can be done for other percentiles.

Weird, I though I included where I took my data in my post. Oh well.
I took the average numbers pulled out from the Top100 parses regarding individual DPS of both NIN and SAM. The difference was about 350 DPS in favor of SAM. Which means that Trick Attack should do at least 350 DPS from 7 other party members for the NIN to be on par with SAM. For a 1.67% damage increase, this equals to 21k group DPS.
So, my numbers are definitly correct.

What differ is what data we use. And it's true that the difference in DPS between NIN and SAM when looking at specific percentiles doesn't align with what I found.

However, I will say that your assumption greatly depends on the fact that your group must share the same percentile between all players. I only went as far as assuming that SAM and NIN had the same skill level (which is what to assume from both Top100). On my side, I checked several real parses, only to see that player's skill is far from being homogeneous. In fact, quite a high number of parses from Top100 SAM and NIN had these players being atleast 96% perf, while the rest of the group was below 50%.
In these groups, a NIN provides way less overall DPS to the group than the SAM.

And this was my main conclusion, supported by your calculations: for NIN to be on par with SAM, the whole group needs to be top notch. This condition greatly devalues Trick Attack and often leads to the situation I described.

But still, it's hard to compare our results, as we both used very different data and, obviously, assumed that we took the right approach.

[Ryaz]

Well if a class OUTPERFORMS the rest, why wouldn't you take said class?
You will kill whatever faster, see less mechanics either by skipping or by killing stuff before they do them, risk less wipes. All this stuff decreases the toll that raiding sometimes takes on the team.
Yeah, you play the game to have fun. But wiping repeatedly and/or spending a lot of time in a raid when it could be far less starts draining every person in there rather fast.

Except those numbers won't really determine whether or not a group wipes repeatedly. Player skill will, unless the fight involves a ridiculously hard DPS check like Bismarck EX did.

[Black_Starr]

There are YT videos of blm and smr doing 4600+ dps and a rdm doing 4500+ so are we gonna need them too or just sam

[MomoOG]

samurai will always be top dps, they threw away all and any party utility, it's what monk should of been, samurai is fine. get used to it.

Why do people say silly things like this. They act like "group utility" is some magical priceless benefit that makes a class automatically desirable. Group utility (of the damage buffing variety) has a very specific indirect damage value to it per given encounter. You can't just give ridiculous damage to a class because it has no utility. That additional "selfish" dps needs to be equal to the indirect damage utility the other classes are bringing.

[Oscura]

There are YT videos of blm and smr doing 4600+ dps and a rdm doing 4500+ so are we gonna need them too or just sam

Dummy parses are not the same as actual parses in actual content.

[HolyTurtle]

In short, for NIN to be at least at the level of SAM, you need a group that can do 21k DPS. It means that your whole group has to work quite hard to make up for the fact that they bring a NIN instead of a SAM which could've been fine by

Susano needs 14k group DPS to be clearable. As of today, quite a lot of PF groups still hit enrage. So this 21k group DPS is far from being the norm.

Choosing a phenomenon (350 dps difference between SAM and NIN) in the highest performance level (top 100 parses for each job) and a phenomenon in PF (21k raid dps is uncommon) to make an implication on choosing a raid composition in PF is irrational. In PF, the 350 dps difference between SAM and NIN is as uncommon as raid dps more than 21k is. In the top 100 parses, the 350 dps difference between SAM and NIN is as common as raid dps more than 21k is. Do not mix and match conditions from different performance levels to make an implication on a specific performance level.

Furthermore, using only 100 parses to represent the performance of any job is inadequate and misleading. Balancing should not be based on the top 100 parses (not even the 90 or 80 percentile), and choosing a raid composition should not revolve around the top 100 parses either since those parses do not reflect the performance of the majority of raiders.

What differ is what data we use. And it's true that the difference in DPS between NIN and SAM when looking at specific percentiles doesn't align with what I found.

Let me restate my conclusions clearly:
- If the performance of every party member is within 10 percentile of each other, then Trick Attack damage increase outscales the dps difference between SAM and NIN.
- If the performance of SAM and NIN are excessively high while the performance of all other members are low, then the dps difference between SAM and NIN outscales the Trick Attack damage increase.

And this was my main conclusion, supported by your calculations: for NIN to be on par with SAM, the whole group needs to be top notch. This condition greatly devalues Trick Attack and often leads to the situation I described.

This is wrong. At all percentile levels, Trick Attack damage increase outscales the dps difference between SAM and NIN, assuming all party members are within the same percentile. A group does not need to be top notch for NIN to provide more raid dps than SAM; the group members only need to be approximately equal in performance.

[AziraSyuren]

Susano needs 14k group DPS to be clearable. As of today, quite a lot of PF groups still hit enrage. So this 21k group DPS is far from being the norm.

...Uh.

That was high for Heavensward, sure. But Stormblood? No, not really.

PF randoms being garbage is nothing new and not an indicator as to whether or not something is imbalanced.

Being able to carry otherwise poor group DPS is exactly how a selfish DPS class should be designed. There's absolutely nothing wrong with something being the clear best in sub-optimal conditions.

[DatPotato]

Well, new classes, to encourage people playing them, might as well make them OP. Doubt it's gonna last. I see this as a marketing move. To get people. (Probably has been said, so might be just an echo)

Kinda like when à new char is Added in a game or something

[Ryaz]

I'm pretty sure that soon enough, SAM will be the new MNK and get nerfed to be equal to the other DPS classes and then thrown away and forgotten about. I'll still play it, though, because I've been waiting on this class since the game first came out.

It's funny that the two new jobs are considered OP this time. Last expansion, all three new jobs were considered weak compared to the old ones.

Simple fact is that no one is ever happy.

[Driavna]

I'm pretty sure that soon enough, SAM will be the new MNK and get nerfed to be equal to the other DPS classes and then thrown away and forgotten about. I'll still play it, though, because I've been waiting on this class since the game first came out.

It's funny that the two new jobs are considered OP this time. Last expansion, all three new jobs were considered weak compared to the old ones.

Simple fact is that no one is ever happy.

DRK was a good tank at release but Machinist and AST were in bad shape. Now SAM and RDM are outperforming more complex classes to play with no real reason for it (RDM also has good raid utility).