SAM out classing all other DPS

[Ryaz]

But in real /most fights, the Sam will hog all the buffs. Just look at FFLOGS.

FFXIV used to be proud, how it was well balanced and FFLOGS was a indicator for that, having so many different jobs mixed out thru the top 10, 20, 30 etc. Unlike other Mmo's, where one job would shine about the others through out the top 50 -100; making over 75% of the dps players want to play it.

this is not a good idea to make any dps class so overpowered. Mnk was never like that. It was the strongest, but not by such a large dps gap and it got punished harder too during some mechanics or mistakes.

Seems as if only Sam main can not see the problem here.

MNK was never like that and most people here seem to agree that no one wanted MNKs in their party for that very reason.

SE needs to do something to balance Samurai without turning them into HW MNK...

[Ephier]

Until balance is removed from the game FFlogs parses will remain padded. AST artificially inflates DPS way too much. I like doing bigger numbers, but in a competitive sense like FFlogs, it ruins it. Look at how the ranks shift when you take balance out. Its crazy.

[Oscura]

Until balance is removed from the game FFlogs parses will remain padded. AST artificially inflates DPS way too much. I like doing bigger numbers, but in a competitive sense like FFlogs, it ruins it. Look at how the ranks shift when you take balance out. Its crazy.

They've started separating balance parses vs flat numbers for this very reason now. There is actual DPS vs Balance DPS now.

[Limani]

It was not my point to say that Samurai is much more difficult than the other dds, but to say that despite higher DPS it is absolutely easy to play is not quite right. I would like to say that the Samurai is easier to handle than a few other jobs, but to be able to play it on a really strong level as it has been mentioned here often, you have to be very hard and that is then far from "easy"

[Barghest1210]

yeeeeah I call bullshit, you cant even compare samurai to the kinda shit I gotta go through as a mnk main. Tell me when do you have to sacrifice DPs in order to prime or use your hardest hitting moves? When can circumstance cause you to lose Sen or Kenkei whether because of poor luck with telegraphs or and ill timed boss jump? And dont get me wrong I love my class, useless moves and all I play for the gameplay not because Im broken. With that love comes a certain loyalty to the brand which is what makes the whole situation bother me when I get to watch a class far exceed my DPS with an utter lack of the same kinda effort I must put into mine. Its like the rest of us are fighting with crossbows and sam has an assault rifle with a grenade launcher attachment "But its hard to decide when I should fire the grenade"

[Leonus]

yeeeeah I call bullshit, you cant even compare samurai to the kinda shit I gotta go through as a mnk main. Tell me when do you have to sacrifice DPs in order to prime or use your hardest hitting moves?

Every single time I use kenki, I have to make a decision, there is a lot of FORWARD planning with samurai. When are you sacrificing DPS? Are you throwing away your GL stacks early?

When can circumstance cause you to lose Sen or Kenkei whether because of poor luck with telegraphs or and ill timed boss jump?

Easy, when I have 3 Sen, 40 kenki and spend 20 on kaiten for a buffed Midare and boss goes invincible the momeent that my attack goes off. 1080 potency lost in less than 2 seconds. I don't get that back, sure I can meditate/Meikyo but I don't get those Sen back that took me 21 seconds to obtain.

And dont get me wrong I love my class, useless moves and all I play for the gameplay not because Im broken. With that love comes a certain loyalty to the brand which is what makes the whole situation bother me when I get to watch a class far exceed my DPS with an utter lack of the same kinda effort I must put into mine. Its like the rest of us are fighting with crossbows and sam has an assault rifle with a grenade launcher attachment "But its hard to decide when I should fire the grenade"

Over exaggeration, really. People in general seem upset that their personal dps can't match a Sam of the Sam skill, which is okay. If you could, why is the Sam there? I didn't find Drg, Mnk(when I played it) or Nin hard. I've been a melee dps main since ARR launch. I don't particularly find Sam hard, It's just different.

[Nominous]

yeeeeah I call bullshit, you cant even compare samurai to the kinda shit I gotta go through as a mnk main. Tell me when do you have to sacrifice DPs in order to prime or use your hardest hitting moves? When can circumstance cause you to lose Sen or Kenkei whether because of poor luck with telegraphs or and ill timed boss jump? And dont get me wrong I love my class, useless moves and all I play for the gameplay not because Im broken. With that love comes a certain loyalty to the brand which is what makes the whole situation bother me when I get to watch a class far exceed my DPS with an utter lack of the same kinda effort I must put into mine. Its like the rest of us are fighting with crossbows and sam has an assault rifle with a grenade launcher attachment "But its hard to decide when I should fire the grenade"

There's different types of difficulty, and dismissing another Job's complexities and not certain aspects of your own is pretty unfair. Writing this, I realized that SAM's difficulty can be summed up by simply saying there's a lot of damage available to the Job, but it's extremely easy to leave on the table. It's not entirely difficult to maximize, but there's a lot of it to be done, and doing things incorrectly means you're either pushing your big hits further back, or you're flat out leaving potency sitting. So yes, deciding how to deal the high damage is crucial. And to criticize other things you said?

GL is a passive buff that's given by doing combo finishers, even if you're doing the incorrect combo or rotation. BoTD at this point is pretty much the same, and some DRG consider it braindead until you hit LoTD, because all it calls for is hitting buttons in a sequence. Same with BLM, because you can't even really lose Enochian unless you want to (transposition actually helps). GL is shorter, but it's been made easier with Form Shift, Shoulder Tackle for quickly getting back to the boss after mechanics, the buff application change in 3.xx, the extended timer (almost certainly required for Riddle of Fire), and Riddle of Earth. At this point, MNK has the tools for the majority of scenarios where they'd lose GL, and all it comes down to is, "Hit these buttons- Keep GL".

SAM doesn't have an upkeep mechanic, so that's a fair judgement, and in that sense alone, GL remains a (very) slight step above SAM in difficulty. However, as all Sen are tied to combos, the difficulty becomes not overlapping/stacking a Sen you already have. This concept is functionally the same as not wanting to complete combos on WAR with maxed Wrath/Abandon stacks. So actually, Sen not dropping off is actually more of a detriment. You lose Sen/damage in a different way than losing GL. You lose damage because you need to refresh your buffs, but you also end up stacking Sen that's already active if you don't have Hagakure up. So yes, they get hurt just as badly by ill-timed mechanics.

This concept becomes even harder on boss jumps. You'll almost certainly have a surplus of Kenki, so your Job is to do your normal opener, but you have to switch around a ton of abilities based on how much Sen, AND Kenki you have. In Susano, sometimes I have max Kenki on phase change, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I phase with the damage buff up, sometimes with the speed buff. Sometimes I have 1 Sen, sometimes 2, sometimes 3. You have to think about how you want to use these to the maximum damage benefit, because it's VERY easy to WASTE damage on the Job, in these scenarios (which come up often). And whatever choice you roll with, it will change the timing of buffs, the opener, and even the following rotation in some scenarios.

The buff timers are long, but it's because you have situations in which you have to cycle two, 3-hit combos, into an Iaijutsu, into another GCD before getting back to it. That scenario comes very rarely, but it does take your timer to it's limit. Most times you're clipping them, so it doesn't matter that they have long timers and becomes a moot point. But during mechanics, they can become extremely tight, again, because of Sen not falling off, and trying to cycle through Sen in the correct way you need to based on buff priority, AND Iaijutsu priority.

I'm not sure ANY Job, even MNK, needs to sacrifice damage to prime hard hitting moves, unless you're talking about Tornado Kick. And if you ARE talking about Tornado Kick, they clearly have an intention for when that's to be used, even if the intent is lame.

You're greatly exaggerating the 'effort' comparisons. It is not the same kind of effort, nobody should argue that. But it is effort all the same. I could call BRD easy because they don't have positionals or requirements to stay in close range of the boss. It isn't a lie that they don't have positionals, but they have different things to worry about, making them difficult in their own way. Same goes for every Job, I've noticed. So yes, SAM are in fact putting in work, you're just downplaying it because it isn't the kind you do.

[TheVideoGameProfessor]

I need to reinforce the idea that just because a job CAN put out top parses does not mean it WILL put out top parses. Every player is different and their ability to perform will grant different numbers. If you're the best at a class that isn't FotM, you stand to parse better than a class that is played at a lower skill level.

If we assume that there is a difference between what is realistic and what is optimal, arguing over what is optimal, then, is arguing over what is not realistic.

Unless you can aggregate a large number of parses in multiple different encounters, crying that something is broken and needs a nerf is an argument from ignorance. Where is the data? You saw a youtube video?

I put out pretty good DPS, but I also am beaten out. Am I better than other players? Is my class inherently more powerful? All I know is the boss goes down, everyone gets to roll for loot, and the group progresses. We have fun.

www.dadknight.org

[Shiroe]

Mnk was not part of the meta during 3.4/3.5-ish for super fast fflogs speed runs, but still got spots in many farm even speed run pfs, .. casters had (and still have) way bigger trouble getting in farm pfs..

Sam can still remain top dps, just not by such a large margin... and don't forget, Sam still has the slashing Buff, so it will still be merit in farm pfs.

[Lastelli]

Mnk was not part of the meta during 3.4/3.5-ish for super fast fflogs speed runs, but still got spots in many farm even speed run pfs, .. casters had (and still have) way bigger trouble getting in farm pfs..

Not true at all. MNK was kept out of any form of serious speedrunning in 3.x. PF stuff is honestly irrelevant when as a MNK you are forced to switch to NIN if you want to attempt world progression or speedrunning.

Anyway, since people are talking about fflogs and stuff, I really don't get why static speed rankings are being conveniently ignored. Those are the interesting numbers, not balances/buffs inflated individual parses. And the top statics' parses clearly show that sam is not so far ahead of other jobs. Also, the fact that there's not a single double sam party in the first top 10 parties should tell a lot. Sure it's a little too early to draw conclusions, but if SAM really was so overpowered we would see 4-sam parties everywhere and this is not the case. To be honest, judging from the numbers, the only two jobs that need some love are DRG and MCH. I'd even argue that the two best jobs right now are RDM and NIN because of embolden+insane mobility+very high personal dps and trick attack respectively.