SAM out classing all other DPS

[Erys]

Snip

Still being 600 dps below on average is making you a deadweight to the group. You will have more mechanics whether you like it or not. More mechanics=more chances to fail because we are all human beings=more fails=more stress=more fails=vicious cycle of death leading to frustration over progression.

I don't advocate for changing classes for the meta, but there's a limit to being useless. I never liked monk but I felt for them in HW. Same for pld and I absolutely hate tanks.
And dragoon is currently only making up their low personal dps with both a bard and machinist and still comes up to deal the same personal damage (if you count the combined of brd and mch into drg's) of ninja or monk. Then ninja on top of that has their raid damage. Furthermore the compo drg+brd+mch is going to be weaker than nin+mnk+sam going by raw numbers.

[Neela]

yeah that's true got your point in the first way already - never the less it's a mmo not an e-sports league. If you ll be judged and critismed by your static/fc for the cls you want to play -> it's not the right place for you to be, move on and find another : /

[Eyvhokan]

samurai will always be top dps, they threw away all and any party utility, it's what monk should of been, samurai is fine. get used to it.

Party utility seems more like party dependency.

Nothing demonstrates this visually more than Dragon Sight; it shows the concept of this 'utility' with a visceral tether between two players with a clunky short range and it only working when the two are near each other.

Utility sounds like it is meant to be synergy, where the sum is greater than the parts. If that sum is less than just having non synergistic parts, why bother?

[Leonus]

I feel other classes will get buffs rather than them heroic Samurai. Samurai is a fluid class that isn't broken, why tamper with it?

[Nominous]

The fact of the matter is that if Samurai is constantly outperforming other classes, it's either really easy, or too strong.

You say Samurai taxing, and your reasoning for this is...decision making? That's the hard part about it? A bunch of what-if scenarios of mostly meaningless conjecture that only happen at certain moments?

I would rather not read in a few months complaints from Samurai players about how DRG, MNK or MCH was overbuffed and they bring more utility + damage than them.

As for SAM's identity vs my job's, I couldn't care less. My only 70 class is Red Mage. I just personally think SAM is too strong compared to the other classes with very little risk involved. Nothing SAM does influences my class' position in any sort of hierarchy, and my class works well with it. I didn't like WAR in 3.0 either.

To be honest, these points here are a lot of what's wrong with this thread. In order-

The immediate reaction to SAM numbers being so high, is that either they're too strong, or it's too easy. It's an assumption, and hardly a fair one. By that logic, I guess SMN and MCH were either too powerful, or too easy in Creator Savage's patch, since they topped most of the charts, right? It's about as baseless as can be.

Yes, decision making and on-the-fly math/judgment calls make SAM difficult. No, it's not meaningless conjecture, or dummy situations. For one, I can't use Third-Eye>Seigan on a dummy. It entirely depends on my knowledge of a fight, if I get chosen for a mechanic, or if I'm predicting a mishandled mechanic (Seigan is unlocked as a proc after being hit with Third-Eye active). Anyone arguing that SAM is easy never mentions maintaining maximum uptime of this 15 second cooldown ability, and how efficient it is, potency wise, per resource spent. Something that sometimes won't matter if you don't get chosen for a mechanic, but will if you do. Using this ability leads to overall higher DPS because it allows for more resource to be used over the course of the fight.

In Susano, getting chosen for the rock, or rooted as a lightning changes things drastically as well. As given with the previous example, if chosen for one of those mechanics, how will you deal with not wasting a resource you've gained? Similar in concept to using a weaponskill on WAR in 2.x/3.x with maxed Wrath/Abandon, Sen should not be stacked. What do you do, then, if you are chosen for one of those mechanics, and you DO already have a Sen active, but need your buffs from the corresponding Sen combos? Since your buffs are tied to Sen, you either waste that resource, or find a solution for not wasting them. And all of this is going on while you're doing mechanics, watching your Kenki to make sure it doesn't hit too much of a surplus, while watching Hagakure in relation to your current Kenki to make sure you don't go over 100 Kenki when you use it, while watching how many Sen you have, just in case you need to reapply your DoT before consuming Sen with Hagakure, while watching Guren's cooldown which costs half of your gauge, while making sure you only use Guren at 70 Kenki if you're coming up on a Midare so you can have 20 left over for another ability, while making sure you get max uptime on Third-Eye>Seigan. Oh, hitting positionals too. Oh, and cast times on Sen abilities, while trying to dodge AoE's, or place yourself for mechanics, or place yourself for positionals before the cast.

We can't talk objectively, so I can only give opinions on why MNK ends up easier. I'll decide against that though, because ultimately, I don't want to get into min/max type of conversations about MNK. The better conversation, is that with min/max talk, ANY Job can be seen as having complexity. I've raided as NIN, MNK, and DRG before SAM. I've looked at the guides and documents for BLM. I've dug through SMN documents with pages upon pages of math and details of the best rotations for different situations. Every Job in this game operates on that same idea. There is skill in bringing out the maximum DPS of any Job in this game. The varying degrees depend on how much you personally care about jumping down the rabbit hole, and how difficult the Job feels for you. If we're gonna start nerfing/buffing Jobs based on feels and assumptions though...

And you should care about the identity of a Job vs. your own or others. That's the thing. As DPS, it's hard to really differentiate one from the other as far as identity goes, because the ultimate goal is to demolish everything, it's just how we go about it, right? It's easy to understand why PLD shouldn't do more than MCH. It's a tank, that's not it's goal. However, we've gotten to a point where some DPS have support (in differing ways), and others don't. That creates precedent for analyzing the identity of a Job, since that will better balance the sum of it's parts. Not to mention, sometimes the identity of the Job contributes to the ultimate balance of it. SAM, and BLM being the best examples of that (and BLM needing some love in that respect as well). If you don't care about that, then we should just play a game where no DPS Job has any identity, get rid of all support skills, and just press blank icons to see big numbers, because that's the only thing that matters on a damage dealer, apparently.

[Erys]

never the less it's a mmo not an e-sports league. If you ll be judged and critismed by your static/fc for the cls you want to play -> it's not the right place for you to be, move on and find another : /

I won't be judged nor by my static nor by my fc, but I will be judged by myself first and foremost. It's not elitism nor a bad practice to say: hey, this class sucks right now and it needs this buff or this tweak to make it not a deadweight.
Also I heavily appreciate my time even if I'm a neet, and this makes me appreciate others' time. So when I team up with people I will make sure I do everything that is in my hands to make their time with me worth it. The problem is my class choice is gimping me because dragoon got a terrible roll on gear stats in verity gear, and the class itself doesn't deal acceptable dps nor bring enough utility to compensate for the lack of personal damage.

[HolyTurtle]

Trick Attack averages +1.67% group DPS.
On Susano, SAM is ~350 DPS higher than NIN -both without balance- (if you include Balance, the gap jumps from 350 DPS to 450. But I won't talk about that as the parses without Balance already prove my point).
For Trick Attack to fill this gap, you need 21k group DPS. This is, of course, assuming that the NIN doesn't miss any Trick Attack and assuming absolutly no downtime... Which, in reality, makes Trick Attack worse than what I said.

In short, for NIN to be at least at the level of SAM, you need a group that can do 21k DPS. It means that your whole group has to work quite hard to make up for the fact that they bring a NIN instead of a SAM which could've been fine by himself alone.

Susano needs 14k group DPS to be clearable. As of today, quite a lot of PF groups still hit enrage. So this 21k group DPS is far from being the norm.

I check my numbers. Do you?

Data for the boss dps (Susano & Lakshmi) at the 80 percentile: https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...sdps&class=Any

Let denote SAM dps in term of percentage of raid dps as S.

On average, NIN does 0.925S, and Trick Attack accounts for 0.0167 (=0.1*10/60) of the raid dps. For Trick Attack dps increase to be no less than the dps difference between NIN and SAM, S needs to be no more than 0.2227 (=0.0167/(1-0.925)) of the raid dps.

Consider a standard composition in which SAM does the highest percentage of raid dps, i.e. other members have the lowest personal dps in their categories: DRK/WAR/SAM/NIN//MCH/SMN/AST/WHM.

At the 80 percentile, DRK does 0.59S; WAR 0.627S, SAM 1S, NIN 0.925S, SMN 0.867S, AST 0.254S, and WHM 0.326S.

Since the sum of all 8 members damage is 100%, S is 0.2170 (=1/(0.59+0.627+1+0.925+0.867+0.254+0.326)), which is less than the threshold 0.2227.

So at the 80 percentile, Trick Attack dps increase is always bigger than the dps difference between SAM and NIN.

Data for the boss dps (Susano & Lakshmi) at the 90 percentile: https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...sdps&class=Any

Doing the same calculations for the 90 percentile with the same aforementioned standard composition:
- S needs to be no more than 0.2012 (=0.0167/(1-0.917)).
- S is 0.1798 (=1/(0.62+0.651+1+0.917+0.851+0.866+0.289+0.369))

So at the 90 percentile in which other members do more dps in term of percentage of raid dps, Trick Attack dps increase further outscales the dps difference between SAM and NIN.

Conclusion: NIN raid dps contribution is higher than SAM raid dps contribution at 80 and 90 percentiles. The same calculations can be done for other percentiles.

[Oscura]

The immediate reaction to SAM numbers being so high, is that either they're too strong, or it's too easy. It's an assumption, and hardly a fair one. By that logic, I guess SMN and MCH were either too powerful, or too easy in Creator Savage's patch, since they topped most of the charts, right? It's about as baseless as can be.

And you should care about the identity of a Job vs. your own or others. That's the thing. As DPS, it's hard to really differentiate one from the other as far as identity goes, because the ultimate goal is to demolish everything, it's just how we go about it, right? It's easy to understand why PLD shouldn't do more than MCH. It's a tank, that's not it's goal. However, we've gotten to a point where some DPS have support (in differing ways), and others don't. That creates precedent for analyzing the identity of a Job, since that will better balance the sum of it's parts. Not to mention, sometimes the identity of the Job contributes to the ultimate balance of it. SAM, and BLM being the best examples of that (and BLM needing some love in that respect as well). If you don't care about that, then we should just play a game where no DPS Job has any identity, get rid of all support skills, and just press blank icons to see big numbers, because that's the only thing that matters on a damage dealer, apparently.

I'm only going to reply to these two points mostly because I think we can both agree that on SAM difficulty vs MNK difficulty we'll probably never agree and it's purely based on opinion. Albeit I don't find MNK difficult at all, I am mostly speaking from what I have heard from others or over the years of playing the game.

My only problem with the first point is the whole thing regarding MCH and SMN. Yes while they had high numbers and topped charts, the problem is how often and how many did so. No one can deny that there is a staggering amount of Samurai topping charts. I have never seen nearly as many machinists or summoners doing so during creator or any period of 3.x series. Yes they often did high numbers, but it was based on a small pool of extremely skilled players, whereas the Samurai numbers we are seeing have a much bigger pool. It is not baseless, or an assumption when it's very clear from the sheer amount of Samurai that exist with high parsing numbers compared to previous classes.

Let's not forget that Square's goal was to make classes easier than they were in HW, and you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that SAM right now is harder if not just as difficult as playing Machinist or Summoner optimally in 3.x. I'd say they succeeded in making things easier, personally.


As for me not caring about balance because I don't care about identity. All I can say is, what? My statement was explicitly to display that my stake in Samurai's balance, and more importantly why I think it is too powerful, is not personal nor is it out of spite. Your statement implied that people with like-minded opinions to mine simply felt Samurai was overlapping them or replacing them. I was simply telling you in my case, that is not true. Pretty much everything you stated in this segment of your post is irrelevant to what I said. I said that Samurai does not directly influence Red Mage's identity, and I meant that it does not do so in a negative light, therefore I have no personal grudge with them.

[Shiroe]

They should buff Sam a tick more, but make it stationery, everything gets casts times.

Than it can be called the hardest and most rewarding class.

As it is now, it's too strong compared to others, not punishing. It out dps-es others with ease and gets all the buffs.

[Galvuu]

It irks me a bit that they made SAM like this.
They recognise that MNK (and arguably the two casters) in HW was an issue- the concept of no utility/party synergy didn't work out and made it undesirable (technically also why WHM got left out, no way to properly buff the part, which means no synergy).
And now they pick the same idea that did not workout for over a year- but err on the side of excessive power this time, to the point some utility jobs can't compete (and well, BLM, which isn't that much of utility but I digress).

This is walking on a razor's edge- SAM needs a dps surplus so that it matches almost perfectly the overall utility options. This is very hard to do (and even then there would likely be disagreements- a SAM is "all the eggs in one basket"; if he dies, the SAM party suffers more than the utility-based comp. If by some chance the Astro has to dump a single target card, the SAM comp gets a slight edge. Things like that).
I just secretly hope this is a grand experiment so when 4.1 (optimistic) or 5.0 (realistic) hits, they can make this concept work ingame to everyone's contentment.