SAM out classing all other DPS

[Shiroe]

Yeah, world fastest speed runs, there mnk would have trouble getting in, in 3.4/3.5-ish, didn't deny that.., but mnks still gut spots in other (fast) farming pfs. Casters had bigger trouble getting in.

And Sam like mentioned, still has the slashing buff. Sam won't become a mnk 3.4/3.5, if the gab is lowered a bit for other classes. Maybe just extend the duration of the Sam slashing buff.

[Limani]

And Sam like mentioned, still has the slashing buff. Sam won't become a mnk 3.4/3.5, if the gab is lowered a bit for other classes. Maybe just extend the duration of the Sam slashing buff.

That would doesn't anything, because the Slashing Debuff is a Sen that we used earlier then the Debuff falls off

[Lastelli]

Yeah, world fastest speed runs, there mnk would have trouble getting in, in 3.4/3.5-ish, didn't deny that.., but mnks still gut spots in other (fast) farming pfs. Casters had bigger trouble getting in.

And Sam like mentioned, still has the slashing buff. Sam won't become a mnk 3.4/3.5, if the gab is lowered a bit for other classes. Maybe just extend the duration of the Sam slashing buff.

The slashing debuff is irrelevant as well since statics will probably bring a NIN as well for trick attack. Exclusive utility is what matters, and SAM brings none. Unless for some reason the optimal party composition will not include a NIN, but I highly doubt that.
The slashing debuff rotation is fine, it will never fall off if the SAM knows what he's doing.

[MomoOG]

The slashing debuff is irrelevant as well since statics will probably bring a NIN as well for trick attack. Exclusive utility is what matters, and SAM brings none. Unless for some reason the optimal party composition will not include a NIN, but I highly doubt that.
The slashing debuff rotation is fine, it will never fall off if the SAM knows what he's doing.

This is bad logic. If NIN is automatically included in every party than there is another imbalance that needs to be adjusted. No single class should have a guaranteed spot.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

And Sam like mentioned, still has the slashing buff.

Let's see... slashing debuff vs slashing +TA... nah, if all SAM had was the slashing debuff, then they'd be benched faster than 2.0 WAR. Slashing would only qualify as utility if the other jobs that can put theirs up lose something in exchange, like 3.X WAR vs NIN. NOW, in all three classes that have it, their required to put it up for their own personal dps(Sen, Storm's and DoTs respectively). Compound this with the fact that any good SAM won't put the slashing debuff up till nearly the 10th GCD and... yeah. SAM needs to have a high personal dps to balance out vs NIN's TA. Sorry, Trick is the counter to any equally good SAM.

[Shiroe]

Extending it was just an idea, could turn it into a aoe slashing debuff, making Sam special.. but lower it's overall personal aoe damage (besides nerfing the Sam in general). There are surly some possibilities for Sam, so it won't lose the meta spot, it wants to hold on, if getting nerfed a bit.

Imo there shouldn be no meta, but that's probably unrealistic too. Just the gap/OP is not good, same for balances or other criterias we seen on the past.

[Lastelli]

Extending it was just an idea, could turn it into a aoe slashing debuff, making Sam special.. but lower it's overall personal aoe damage (besides nerfing the Sam in general). There are surly some possibilities for Sam, so it won't lose the meta spot, it wants to hold on, if getting nerfed a bit.

Imo there shouldn be no meta, but that's probably unrealistic too. Just the gap/OP is not good, same for balances or other criterias we seen on the past.

They designed it that way. They wanted SAM to be the "highest-dps-no-utility" job. They will not nerf it just to give it some kind of half-assed utility, at least during 4.x. Also, nerfing SAM personal dps would result in a #deletesam meme because, again, zero relevant exclusive utility. They probably learnt their lesson with MNK. MNK had dragon kick INT down debuff in arr and hw, but since it wasn't exclusive nobody cared and its slight advantage in personal dps wasn't enough to compensate for its lack of party synergy. That's why SAM is the way it is right now. They know very well that they need to give a zero utility job some relevant damage advantage to make the job itself desirable. Like it or not, SAM will always outdps every other job during stormblood.

This is bad logic. If NIN is automatically included in every party than there is another imbalance that needs to be adjusted. No single class should have a guaranteed spot.

PLD and AST both have a guaranteed spot though. So yeah...call it imbalance if you want, but players will always find the jobs or compositions most suited for progression and speedruns.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

PLD and AST both have a guaranteed spot though. So yeah...call it imbalance if you want, but players will always find the jobs or compositions most suited for progression and speedruns.

Just like WAR and SCH and NIN had guaranteed spots in 3.0

[Galvuu]

PLD and AST both have a guaranteed spot though. So yeah...call it imbalance if you want, but players will always find the jobs or compositions most suited for progression and speedruns.

This is a game of numbers and probability.
There will always be a best comp, a best job for some scenario, a best skill, a best everything.
We cannot stop this. Nor should we try to, we should accept the game for what it is.

That said, what we should strive for is a situation where the gap is small enough so it's not this glaring.
In 3.X I played a lot of BLM and SMN. I knew BLM didn't have as much single target as MNK, but it was close enough that it didn't bother me.
I knew that BRD+MCH+NIN+DRG was better than having a caster there, but I felt good playing SMN and melting adds in A12S.

Right now though, I feel worthless playing either job. I play them because I adore them, but it nags me on the back of my mind- "these guys would be better off with a samurai/ninja/whatever...".
I just enjoy the aesthetics/feel of the caster jobs, and dislike Samurai or Ninja. But- I suspect like most people- I have this power fantasy. Everyone likes doing lots of damage, or buffing the whole party- one of the best feelings I've had in this game was negating a mechanic with a deployed Critlo. And it's hard to feel that when I know some jobs inherently do more than mine no matter what I do, in damage and utility.
Maybe I'm salty and selfish. I probably am. Maybe I shouldn't think about these things and just "enjoy the game". But I really feel like I'm a poor choice for a group, and it's hard to shake that off for me. That a player with the same skill playing those jobs brings more. I can't rationalise a reason to pick myself with this job choice over that other guy with a RDM. I even started prepping RDM to escape this feeling. I never felt like this in 3.X. I don't want anything nerfed, or the meta to change.
Just a little push so I don't feel as bad. Heck, you could give me 2 potency and I'd instantly feel better, going "aaay, at least I'm a bit stronger now".
I'm aware this probably sounds awfully petty/silly, but it really is how I see it :/

[Lastelli]

This is a game of numbers and probability

I don't disagree, mind you. But I strongly believe that the dev team should make different jobs shine based on the different encounters. For instance, design a savage turn so that blm isn't forced to move too much and/or magic damage is needed to deal with some mechanic. Design the next turn including something akin to the tether in T8 that can be easily managed by brd/mch thanks to their mobility and constant uptime and so on and so forth. The main problem with creator savage was, in my opinion, a very poor and lazy encounter design. This is why mch/brd/nin/drg was the optimal composition, no other reason really.