SAM out classing all other DPS

[Silverquick]

Be warned: sam skill ceiling is quite high. You can do pretty good damage even if you're not playing optimally, but perfect use of hagakure and kenki + sen management is not easy at all. Also optimal play requires the correct use of thirdeye, which means that you have to know exactly when aoe damage is coming. I was a nin main in creator savage and previously a mnk main and I honestly think that sam skill ceiling is higher than these jobs' during heavensward.

Honestly I think you're right. From the parces I've seen, the majority of SAM's have been a good 600 or more DPS below me. It took a long time to find one that understood the job, and even he wasn't able to beat me by much. And obviously from some of the other people in this thread, its not just me seeing it.

So I think SAM is in the same shoes as BLM... does lots of damage on a training dummy but can't translate it well to actual combat due to movement, positionals, etc.

It's going to take a seriously skilled player to do this one right, and then the mechanics in an instance might still screw you over.

[Jeckyl_Tesla]

oh stand corrected all I've done is look through the job skills and noticed no mention of any positional requirements on any of its skills

As others have stated, the positionals aren't as full blown as something like MNK or DRG or NIN where not using them instantly means you loseDPS, but a SAM not using his positionals correctly will lose DPS overall.
The SAM rotation isn't about doing a rigid rotation however, and it requires on the fly thinking while juggling multiple things at once. Add in movements, and perfect positionals, you're going to find that difference between a good SAM and a bad SAM to be very very noticeable. More so than most other classes apart from something like a BLM.

Though this isn't a jab directed at you, I bet that SAM will be known as the class with the worst players. And it'll be the people who think it's an easy class that will be the ones behind the reins.

[Clawbriar]

Its proof the the development team don't always know what they are doing and that's why the feedback is important. The consensus of at least 1000 people (despite how ill informed they can be) is still most likely more correct than that of a development team who judge themselves by their intentions.

My kingdom for a public test realm where we could try this stuff out and give our own feedback as opposed to "screw you, play our way, get better."

[HoLoFoNo]

My kingdom for a public test realm where we could try this stuff out and give our own feedback as opposed to "screw you, play our way, get better."

Followed by:
Patch notes - We buffed the hell out of this class we said was good.

[Clawbriar]

It's pretty stupid how we don't have a PTR. World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XI and the Elder Scrolls Online all had them. They're invaluable for giving feedback outside of internal testing.

[Lildragora]

It's pretty stupid how we don't have a PTR. World of Warcraft, Final Fantasy XI and the Elder Scrolls Online all had them. They're invaluable for giving feedback outside of internal testing.

That's crazy! Who would ever want to test major changes to a game they have invested hundreds to thousands of hours and hundreds of dollars into while giving feedback? Who cares about community? Blasphemy!

/sarcasm

[Rheumasalbe]

Overall, I would say good points have been brought forth by both sides. Me personally, I am leaning towards "let's wait and see" for now after the points made since we don't have the "full" expansion pack yet (i.e. 24 man raid etc.).

One thing I want to say though is that people say "Monk has raid utility" which I, as a Monk main, want to sort of debunk. Sure, we have brotherhood, but it's only 5% of physical damage, meaning that how much utility it brings heavily relies on party comp (though with the current trend of SAM mains exploding, it's almost guaranteed that you have another melee with you in random groups at all times in 8-man groups).

Monk synergy however is a lot better due to the Deep Meditation crit trait (50% chance that a weapon skill crit will stack one Chakra): give us DRG's and BRD/MCH's crit buffs in addition to our own, it sounds pretty friggin great. However, this synergy is mostly one-sided, since it's only other classes giving us bonus dps, just like Brotherhood is just a trade-off ("I give you damage, you give me Chakras").

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining about Monk (besides Tackle Mastery and Tornadokick, which are enigmas). My point is that people shouldn't say Monk has good utility now, because it's not universal like DRG or NIN.

Also, it has hardly ever been said before, but with the introduction of role actions, most survival or CC skills are pulled from the same pool. Monk only has one useful CC (the Tackle) since One Ilm Punch is garbage (bc it's right in the middle of your combo and thus rarely ready when you want it to be without losing a lot of DPS); and we don't have a self-heal that other melees don't (Bloodbath and Second Wind). So the only aspect where Monk excel when it comes to self-preservation is the defensive stance, which only they have. But my point still stands that SAM is the glass cannon people make it out to be. It probably eats less damage than casters, and has almost the same self-preservation skills as other melees. And since it's not as heavily reliant on positionals as others, especially Monks and I guess DRG maybe, they have higher choice in mobility.

Not saying that SAM should be nerfed or anything. As I said, I'm gonna wait and see. But still, don't make SAM out to be a glass cannon when it is really not. And don't say Monk has as much utility as other melees, because it is not so. Mantra is cool and all and may save some lives, but compared to other classes (and melees besides SAM), it's not a point to brag about.

EDIT: I just realized that SAM gains a(nother) self-heal at lv 58. I'm not gonna say that it's a useful skill or not since my SAM is lv 57, so I am not knowledgeable about it at all. Point is: SAM is self-contained, yes. Glass cannon? Not so much.

[Shiroe]

Are Sam and Blm closer to each other than Mnk and Blm were in 3.0? Like a Blm just needs a little proc lucky to equal or surpass a Sam, while in 3.0 a Blm needed a LOT of proc luck to surpass a Mnk.

Sam might still seem in raids stronger due to other buffs he receives, like embolden (rdm), dragon sight (drg), brotherhood (mnk). Since those favour melee or physical dps, besides if ifrit (smn) or balances are used too. If taking those buffs into account and NOT using them on a Sam, are Blm possibly the strongest dps, when a little provide lucky?

Would actually make sense, since there are less buff chances for Blm, making it actually a tick stinger with some proc luck and good usage of them.

[Sunako]

Are Sam and Blm closer to each other than Mnk and Blm were in 3.0? Like a Blm just needs a little proc lucky to equal or surpass a Sam, while in 3.0 a Blm needed a LOT of proc luck to surpass a Mnk.

Sam might still seem in raids stronger due to other buffs he receives, like embolden (rdm), dragon sight (drg), brotherhood (mnk). Since those favour melee or physical dps, besides if ifrit (smn) or balances are used too. If taking those buffs into account and NOT using them on a Sam, are Blm possibly the strongest dps, when a little provide lucky?

Would actually make sense, since there are less buff chances for Blm, making it actually a tick stinger with some proc luck and good usage of them.

In 3.0 battle voice foe also affect lot blm dps, not sure can casters compete against melees without that.

[PK_THUNER]

I saw a pic of a Sam doing over 40,000 dmg with one hit.