Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[CaeliaCat]

What are you talking about? Bole? Collective Unconscious? Diurnal hasn't changed to get some new mitigation ability that we didn't have already to my knowledge.

I was talking about collective unconscious. I'm just pointing out that it's ridiculous that Diurnal AST, on top of all the card utility, still gets a party wide 10% damage mitigation tool in Stormblood(that ALSO adds a HoT). It's another point of disparity between the other healers and WHM at this point.

Maybe it made sense when AST had weaker healing ability, but that's just not the case anymore. If all WHM can do is throw out a single 15% shield on one person (if RNG procs a lily when needed), then why should a Diurnal AST get a 10% party-wide mitigation ability now that their healing has been continuously boosted to be on par with WHM?

[Miste]

I was talking about collective unconscious. I'm just pointing out that it's ridiculous that Diurnal AST, on top of all the card utility, still gets a party wide 10% damage mitigation tool in Stormblood(that ALSO adds a HoT).

Do you play AST? Because....collective unconscious sucks.

It is extremely situational because the AST has to channel it and cannot move or cast any abilities to use it and depending on the server tick you could be sitting there up to 3 seconds waiting for the buffs to proc before you can cancel it.

The AST has to continuously be stuck channeling it to get the 10% shield part of it so it is often just used to get the Regen from it then it is promptly cancelled which is similar to Asylum but WHM's can use Asylum freely with no restrictions and can be placed anywhere. As someone who plays both WHM and AST...WHM wins this one with Asylum imo. It is way more flexible and reliable than collective unconscious.

Not to mention you are missing the fact that AST having collective unconscious doesn't actually change anything and it is possibly needed for a certain healer composition to be viable.

With NoctAST + WHM pair the shield part of collective unconscious can be a, albeit crappy, replacement for SCH's Sacred Soil...so if AST didn't have this then the NoctAST + WHM pair would be missing mitigation that may be needed for boss ultimates. AST also doesn't have deployment tactics either so missing some more powerful shields there as well. This would make NoctAST + WHM pair possibly less viable...which isn't what we want.

With Diurnal AST + SCH healing pair...the AST doesn't need the shield part of collective unconscious anyway since SCH has Sacred Soil; so the benefit is negligible . It's only helpful if the SCH doesn't want to use a stack on it but also Sacred Soil, like Asylum, is way more flexible and doesn't need to be channeled.

The channeling aspect of collective unconscious makes it useless to use as a sacred soil replacement for anything except boss ultimate attacks (IE: A12 after adds and Alex Prime tries to melt your face off and you need the tank LB etc)...because you only get the 10% reduction as long as the AST is channeling then they can no longer move or use any other spells/abilities.

No good AST is going to sit for all of collective unconscious' duration to get the 10% shield when they could be using cards, direct healing, or DPSing so collective unconscious is basically just AST's crappy version of Asylum or crappy Sacred Soil replacement when paired with a WHM; so I really don't think it is one of the issues we are facing with healer balance.

[Eothas]

so collective unconscious is basically just AST's crappy version of Asylum.

Not true at all, the HoT part of CU stays even if you cancel the channeling (after the tick), on top of that you can extend it with Celestial Opposition. Largesse + Diurnal Aspected Helios + Aspected Benefic on MT + Collective is a super powerful HoT, beats anything that a WHM can do, then you extend it and basically has free regen for 25secs (Aspected Helios will stay for 40s) WHILE MOVING. If the new raids requires more healing like some people are expecting you can replace Expanded Balance with Expanded Bole if needed and delete WHM in the process.

It's true that no one wants to stay channeling, but you don't need to, time it correctly and you can even use the damage reduction part for a very specific mechanic before it hits if needed, something that a WHM can't do. Asylum is nice and I don't think they have to change CU, but calling it a crappy version of Asylum is a bit too much.

Bonus information: Celestial Opposion can extend Sprint, you can basically sprint non-stop for an entire minute, it will come off CD at the same time it expires.

[Miste]

Not true at all, the HoT part of CU stays even if you cancel the channeling

The AST has to continuously be stuck channeling it to get the 10% shield part of it so it is often just used to get the Regen from it then it is promptly cancelled

because you only get the 10% reduction as long as the AST is channeling

No good AST is going to sit for all of collective unconscious' duration to get the 10% shield

I clarified I was only talking about the 10% shield when it comes to the channeling aspect. The person I replied to was talking mostly about the 10% shield not the HoT. So you might want to pay a bit closer attention there :x

As for your other points you can try to time it, but you are always losing a GCD with CU and most things don't hit enough to need the 10% shield anyway.

The server tick just happened before you used it? You didn't get the shield aspect because it didn't proc in time for the hit anyway and you likely lost a GCD.

Use it too early? You are stuck channeling until the hit goes off and lose multiple GCDs.

Tank buster?...some tank busters are cleaves and you'd possibly get yourself killed if you tried to channel your CU for MT.

It's very situational since you only have use for it maybe one or two times a fight even though you could have used it 6 times in a 10 minute fight. While Asylum can be used every time it is off cooldown to cover the tank with regens so more DPS is possible. CU is not useless, but the clunkiness is why I said it sucks :/ waiting and losing GCD's for it to proc the regen by itself even is annoying and to me usually not worth it when you can just cast an aspected helios instead.

I vastly prefer Asylum over CU.

Just because a spell is situational does not mean that it "sucks".

I understand that, but it is just my opinion on it. On AST nothing frustrates me more than sitting channeling waiting for the server tick to happen to get the regen. It is clunky so I don't care for it.

If an AST isn't using Collective Unconscious during Gobslice Mooncrops in A10S, Eternal Darkness in A11S, and Holy Scourge in A12S, I would argue that they are doing something wrong, especially early in progression when players have lower HP pools and are more likely to have someone with weakness.

I don't use it always for those. I am paired with a SCH so he just uses Sacred Soil instead and we both DPS and then time AoE heals (the channeling aspect of CU makes it not worth using if you can actively DPS the boss instead).

Diurnal AST gets the ability anyway

Yes because...

WHM + AST of course you would use CU for every one of those boss ultimates since WHM doesn't have a 10% mitigation field so that's why I said it isn't really ridiculous that AST has CU. Unless we want AST + WHM to be missing shields for those mechanics you just mentioned :/

You talk about healer compositions being viable, what about WHM/WHM? Sounds like a combination for lots and lots of wipes at this point. (AST / AST and SCH / SCH both appear to work fine given what we know).

Double stacking the same healer job is not supposed to be viable :x it works...on a basic level for casual content because with DF you can't always get two healers of different jobs, but its not supposed to be good or better than 2 different healer jobs together.

The healer pairs we want good and viable are:

WHM + SCH
AST + WHM
SCH + AST

Also, I'd point out that I'm not advocating for collective unconscious to be nerfed at all.

Well it could be nerfed if it had to be tbh it is too situational to be really useful, but it just doesn't need to be nerfed because its usefulness is not overpowered really.

WHM just needs raid utility to be competitive for healer roles in the end game.

I agree with you on that.

but let's be honest, it's to the detriment of the party that they take a WHM over either of the other healers.

I think it is too soon to say something like this. Haven't played the expansion yet. I agree with you it SEEMS bad...but I try to keep some optimism.

Although I do want to try everything first...honestly WHM adds a lot of reliable DPS while AST's cards are RNG and AST's DPS got nerfed into the ground along with SCH (but even SCH does more) so maybe it is possible WHM's DPS will be high enough where it is comparable to what an AST averages. Just speculation though.

I'm actually debating which to play...I don't like what they did to AST personally...I really love the new WHM AF as well and WHM actually seems more fun to play since their DPS rotation didn't get nerfed quite as heavily.

[Eothas]

I clarified I was only talking about the 10% shield when it comes to the channeling aspect. The person I replied to was talking mostly about the 10% shield not the HoT.

My reply was to your statement that CU is a crappy version of Asylum, which is not true. They are different and CU can adjust to be useful in even more situations if they change raid design to be more damage heavy. Also you omitted info about Celestial Oppostion which adds more value to CU if needed. I see people saying that S.E. might change raid design to favor WHM but often overlook AST healing capabilities. It's not needed NOW, but if it's needed in Stormblood, WHM will be even less valuable. Not even talking about Earthly Star yet, which can be nerfed or even buffed, who knows...

[Miste]

My reply was to your statement that CU is a crappy version of Asylum, which is not true.

but WHM's can use Asylum freely with no restrictions and can be placed anywhere. As someone who plays both WHM and AST...WHM wins this one with Asylum imo. It is way more flexible and reliable than collective unconscious.

Already clarified this was my opinion and why I have that opinion that CU is a crappy version of Asylum.

It's true for me (imo) no matter what you say. I just don't like it compared to Asylum and I feel Asylum is better since you don't have to channel it nor are you stuck waiting for a server tick in order to move/cast again. It looks great on paper, but in practice CU is clunky, frustrating, and inflexible. (in my opinion...just incase you miss it :x )

While AST is trying to use CU and get the server tick a WHM could have used Asylum and had time to use up to 2 more spells/abilities while the AST is stuck channeling. Also since CU is not as flexible as Asylum depending on where the AST wants to use CU they may have to adjust their position to cover all the players while WHM can just point and place Asylum to wherever they wish without having to adjust.

Another part of its inflexibility is Asylum once placed is there for its duration while CU has to encompass all players when you use it and they have to be in it when the server tick happens to get the regen. So once you cancel it it is gone while Asylum players can run underneath it afterwards and still get part of the healing even if they arrived a bit late.

CU is useful, it just has so many drawbacks with it as well and due to the server tick issue with it it isn't as efficient as you would think.

While you may not always use CU for its various flaws, at least AST has the option available to them, regardless of the chosen sect. WHM can do next to nothing to protect players with weakness or vulnerability stacks at any of those points in a fight come Stormblood. I'd also point out in your A10S, A11S, and A12S clears, while healing with a scholar, you're still obviously gaining a benefit from the CU mitigation on Mooncrops, Eternal Darkness, and Incinerating Heat. (I enjoyed your clear videos by the way in all honesty!)

Yeah our first clears I used CU for those more often rather than have my boyfriend use sacred soil. First clears were a bit shaky with my healer DPS I let the SCH do more of that so instead of having him use Sacred Soil I took care of it. It isn't really a major benefit since he could have just used sacred soil instead and gotten same results though.

Incinerating heat well...apparently usually its the SCH who stays outside for crystals, but our group just ended up with me outside and I didn't have much use for CU in the beginning phases of A12S so I opted to use it there. I don't think you would necessarily die without it, I guess depends on item levels.

Doesn't WHM have Divine Benison now? I heard it's a shield. I just can't remember.

Thanks very much for checking them out and I am glad you liked them!

WHM did win the glamour trophy.

Yes...yes it did xD

[Eothas]

(in my opinion...just incase you miss it :x )

Oh, fine. Glad we both agree that it's just an opinion and not a fact.

[CaeliaCat]

Doesn't WHM have Divine Benison now? I heard it's a shield. I just can't remember.

Yes they do.. on a single target.. if the WHM can proc a lily.. and they didn't already use that lily on Assize, Asylum, or Tetra topping people off before the upcoming mechanic.. and it's only a 15% HP shield, not even as good as the old stoneskin trait WHM had in 2.0. I think that's the problem we're wanting to discuss in this thread.

[CaeliaCat]

I don't use it always for those.

While you may not always use CU for its various flaws, at least AST has the option available to them, regardless of the chosen sect. WHM can do next to nothing to protect players with weakness or vulnerability stacks at any of those points in a fight come Stormblood. I'd also point out in your A10S, A11S, and A12S clears, while healing with a scholar, you're still obviously gaining a benefit from the CU mitigation on Mooncrops, Eternal Darkness, and Incinerating Heat. (I enjoyed your clear videos by the way in all honesty!)

Nocturnal AST / WHM shouldn't be missing shields, but I still don't think Diurnal AST should have access to mitigation if WHM is going to be left in the cold in the same area, personally. However, as another AST pointed out a page or two ago, that decision was already reversed shortly after Heavensward was released in one of the many AST improvement patches.

I wouldn't be so sure about double stacking healers only being in "casual content". Nocturnal AST / Diurnal AST may become the next big thing, even with an added annoyance of coordinating cards between the two, depending on how much of the media tour build goes live.

I really love the new WHM AF..

WHM did win the glamour trophy.

[CaeliaCat]

Do you play AST? Because....collective unconscious sucks.

Just because a spell is situational does not mean that it "sucks". If an AST isn't using Collective Unconscious during Gobslice Mooncrops in A10S, Eternal Darkness in A11S, and Holy Scourge in A12S, I would argue that they are doing something wrong, especially early in progression when players have lower HP pools and are more likely to have someone with weakness. Also, just because a Diurnal AST and SCH combination may not NEED the 10% mitigation, Diurnal AST gets the ability anyway, and the mitigation stacks with sacred soil. Again, all WHM can do in any of those instances, is hope RNG grants a Lily, and then put one, piddly 15% shield on a single target. At least in HW, WHM could get stoneskin out on multiple targets! You talk about healer compositions being viable, what about WHM/WHM? Sounds like a combination for lots and lots of wipes at this point. (AST / AST and SCH / SCH both appear to work fine given what we know).

Also, I'd point out that I'm not advocating for collective unconscious to be nerfed at all. WHM just needs raid utility to be competitive for healer roles in the end game. Yes, WHM will get some raid spots and probably clear content, but let's be honest, it's to the detriment of the party that they take a WHM over either of the other healers. Longer flights with lower DPS and less room for error. I'm just lucky I have good friends.