Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[Sebazy]

This game's track record is anything but predictable though no? SCOB was a substantial step up in difficulty and mechanics vs BCOB, FCOB was more of a halfway house and I'm fairly certain I remember SE stating that they were happy with the difficulty they hit with Bahamut Prime. Gordias was massively removed from anything we had seen before, A3S was significantly harder than any main line coil turn (And was one of the best bosses of this expansion) whilst one can only guess at how low the clear rate would have been for A4S if Pentacle had have forced a wipe when failed.

Back onto the topic with the thread: At the end of the day, WHM is simply not meta, nothing more, nothing less. PLD in A12S is a better example of a class that is an outright hinderance (You typically run out of cooldowns by inceptions, not really an issue at 270 with echo, but at 230 without, it was problematic to say the least). Whilst a WHM might not bring a bottle to the party like AST does, it certainly isn't stopping the show either.

It's good that we have these discussions here to keep SE aware that we don't think the job is in a good place right now. But I can't help but feel that all the cries of 'RIP WHM' and so forth do very little for this communities credibility on these matters when the job is actively getting played and doing just fine at every level of the game despite what this forum would have you believe.

[Eothas]

Back onto the topic with the thread: At the end of the day, WHM is simply not meta, nothing more, nothing less. PLD in A12S is a better example of a class that is an outright hinderance (You typically run out of cooldowns by inceptions, not really an issue at 270 with echo, but at 230 without, it was problematic to say the least). Whilst a WHM might not bring a bottle to the party like AST does, it certainly isn't stopping the show either.

It's true that WHMs can clear all content available, no doubt about it. I think most people can agree with that, even those complaining about WHM's current state. Individually speaking, White Mage IS good, it can handle everything pretty well other than some MP issues if you are DPS'ing a lot. The problem though is when you add SCH and specially AST into the mix, the discrepancy is so big that it hurts. AST is so broken that I have to laugh. More than enough healing output for every piece of content with the extremely broken Balance card on top. Sometimes I like to think that Sophia (Goddess of Balance/Equilibrium) disapproves AST, because definitely there is nothing balanced about that card.

The main concern here is not if White Mages will be able to clear Omega or not, I'm sure they will. The problem is that AST is so broken that it negatively affects White Mages, our reputation is bad and it's getting worse, with or without reason. Unfortunately, like it or not, most people will follow the meta. You can't expect everyone to be enlightened or to have patience to play with something subpar. It got to the point where I feel uncomfortable joining PF groups as WHM, I feel like most people would rather have a below-average AST than a good WHM in their groups. You can argue that this is a blessing in disguise because those people are idiots and I agree, but this means more time looking for a decent PF that doesn't have WHM locked out and this is bad. We can't ignore that there is also GOOD players that only follows the meta, even if not needed.

So even though we need more information about the job, I think the concern is valid. Even aesthetically speaking WHM's new skills seems underwhelming in comparison to AST.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

But I can't help but feel that all the cries of 'RIP WHM' and so forth do very little for this communities credibility on these matters when the job is actively getting played and doing just fine at every level of the game despite what this forum would have you believe.

I'm starting to really hate the word viable...

Yes, WHM can clear all content. But the power gap between WHM and AST/SVH is ridiculous. At this point, you're just purposely holding others back by going WHM. Less damage, less utility, less mitigation. The only thing you bring is Cure III, which saw 0 use in all of Creator.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

. You can't expect everyone to be enlightened or to have patience to play with something subpar. It got to the point where I feel uncomfortable joining PF groups as WHM, I feel like most people would rather have a below-average AST than a good WHM in their groups. .

I feel 100% the exact same way. WHM can clear all content, but it feels like you're handicapping your party. Why bring WHM when you can bring something that can get the healing job done just as well while also benefitting the party in other ways. It just feels like you're holding back the rest of your group for no reason.

[Acidblood]

... WHM can clear all content, but it feels like you're handicapping your party. Why bring WHM when you can bring something that can get the healing job done just as well while also benefitting the party in other ways. It just feels like you're holding back the rest of your group for no reason.

+1 While I feel OK playing a WHM in 4 man content (mainly due to the number of AoE pulls), I feel guilty playing a WHM in even normal raids (8 or 24 man), as beyond healing (which AST and SCH do equally well enough), I have literally nothing to contribute*... and if it remains the same in 4.0, as much as I love the simplicity of WHM (and Holy), I can't help but feel that I'm going to have to switch to AST or SCH as the main healing class I play.

* Mediocre DPS notwithstanding, as both AST and SCH offer a similar amount, and as let’s be honest, any amount of Healer DPS pales in comparison to what a proper DPS class and / or 'Balance' offers.

[Sebazy]

I feel 100% the exact same way. WHM can clear all content, but it feels like you're handicapping your party. Why bring WHM when you can bring something that can get the healing job done just as well while also benefitting the party in other ways. It just feels like you're holding back the rest of your group for no reason.

This is an unavoidable side effect of a game where certain classes synergise with others coupled with there being significantly more classes than raid slots. Groups take NIN to Goad the DRG that's buffing the MCH that's in turn enabling you to. Ooops you've not got a MNK for Dragonkick anymore and suddenly that PLD looks especially unappealing. I won't deny that the gap should be narrowed a bit, but that gap is always going to be there. Progression raiders will figure out and settle on an optimal meta irrespective of how marginal the gains are and the sheep will follow it as gospel.

Rather the trick is to try and ensure you give different jobs 'a moment in the sun' so to speak whilst minimising the disparity as much as you can. Gordias and Midas both suited WHM, Creator suited AST. SMN and BLM are a good example of where SE have gotten this spot on with the two jobs falling in an out of favour vs each other right from the word go with BCOB despite very little actually changing. PLD and DRK are a better example of where they've gotten it wrong.

[Belhi]

Well AST major buffs when 3.4 came out probably contributed more to AST's ascent than the fight mechanics.

[Alkimi]

The 20% Balance was part of the entire snowball effect of buffing jobs from 3.0 to 3.4. Every time they buffed a job they overdid it.

AST actually got 2 buffs during Heavensward, one in 3.1 to make it a better healer and then again in 3.4 to kill WHM off.

They did the same with MCH (10% Hypercharge effectively killed having BLM in a meta group) and then buffed BRD because it was doing less damage than MCH. The whole thing snowballed to create a ridiculous situation where ranged were the top meta DPS and the two melee were basically support jobs for the party's damage output. The actual highest DPS jobs (MNK and BLM) were left out because they were "selfish dps".

I'm hoping SE has learned from this, since no doubt adjustments will need to be made during 4.0.

[Skye_]

That wouldn't do much. ASTs identity is a support and buffer. Nerfing that in favor of healing would be silly.

Honestly, the absolute best thing they can do is nerf their healing back to their 3.0 values, but have all the upgrades to their kit/cards/CDs etc the same. Their healing wasn't the only problem. Their overall healing kit was weak, and their cards weren't strong enough to bother with. Now that they are, I think we can safely lower their healing so that they're drawback is having a harder time healing, but supporting the party better than both other healers.

Yes, 100%.

[Skye_]

At 3.0, Astro was trash but the buffs to its healing potency even before 3.4 helped give it an edge. People just stubbornly refused to play it until the mega buff. The devs now either need to commit to making Astro a hybrid or weakening its support or White Mage will be DoA.

AST wasnt trash other than the cards needing a buff. Their healing MAYBE needed one buff. The problem is SCH's healing with AST's did not or did not want to adjust their play style to healing with someone other than WHM. The SCHs should have adjusted, lowering their personal DPS, but its made up for with AST dps buff.