Unofficial Census 2016 for FFXIV

[Chalbee]

I already explained it. Let's say I spend 20 years of my life working hard 24/7 to buy a plane. Now I have plane, get fame, girls, ride friends, tell stories and have fun with it. And next morning goverment decides to give free plane to every person. So in the end I just wasted 20 years of my life for nothing while everyone was spending this time with families, beloved ones, doing fun stuff and enjoing life. Of course that is not fair and I will be mad.

The lesson there is that you should have spent more time enjoying your life, since you clearly realize that is more important than the plane. Did you want a plane because you wanted a plane? Or did you want a plane because you felt like having one would make you better than other people? Given the fact that you basically called all casual players worthless a few pages ago, I'm going to assume it's the latter.

[Vantol]

The lesson there is that you should have spent more time enjoying your life, since you clearly realize that is more important than the plane. Did you want a plane because you wanted a plane? Or did you want a plane because you felt like having one would make you better than other people? Given the fact that you basically called all casual players worthless a few pages ago, I'm going to assume it's the latter.

Yes, it's the latter. I always explicitly say it (well, maybe not in this thread). Is there something wrong with wanting to be better than others or be the best? It's like basics of how humanity and progress works.

[Jynx]

The lesson there is

You are aware we live in a consumer centric world right? Unless your up meditating on the mountains your as guilty of this as the person your trying to shame for it.

People don't get to have everything. That's how our world works. People generally expect to work for a reward and not watch it be given out to someone else for free.

Technically the same mindset works in game for some people.

[Chalbee]

Consumerism!

I am fully aware that we live in a consumer-centric world, and while I don't meditate on a mountain top, I find no joy in lording my accomplishments over others. My joy in my accomplishments comes from that fact that I did it, not in that fact that others have not done it.

I wonder why your enjoyment of x is nullified by more people having it. As someone else pointed out, schadenfreude should not be necessary to enjoy something. If you really feel the need to whip it out and measure when you see someone with the same item as you, just mention that you got it when it was still a pain in the ass. But really, if your sense of accomplishment is dependent on being better than others, I don't have the right credentials to help with that...

[zosia]

I am fully aware that we live in a consumer-centric world, and while I don't meditate on a mountain top, I find no joy in lording my accomplishments over others. My joy in my accomplishments comes from that fact that I did it, not in that fact that others have not done it.

I wonder why your enjoyment of x is nullified by more people having it. As someone else pointed out, schadenfreude should not be necessary to enjoy something. If you really feel the need to whip it out and measure when you see someone with the same item as you, just mention that you got it when it was still a pain in the ass. But really, if your sense of accomplishment is dependent on being better than others, I don't have the right credentials to help with that..
.

I think you are being a bit hyperbolic. You don't have to rub an achievement in someones face to appreciate it's rarity. You are making a false equivalency. Just because I might appreciate having something that a lot of people don't does not mean I have to obnoxiously rub it in someone's face. It's nice to have something rare, a hard earned reward from a path few will follow.

I don't. I've never even said that I think the reward structure for raiding in this game is sufficient. I'd actually agree that effort:reward ratio for Savage is far too low, but that's not the point here.

It's a big part of the point. The raid rewards sucking is the same pattern dragging down the rest of the game.

If it's just the rewards are the issue, please explain why A4S, which rewards a mount, had a clear rate more than order of magnitude smaller than Heroic Blackrock Foundry, which, as far as I can tell from Wowhead, had no mount, no title, no special quests, nothing that you couldn't get from Normal Blackrock Foundry.

Because a4s is the worst designed raid fight of this game. The dev test team could not even beat the fight in it's entirety. They only play tested the fight in parts. Not to mention how bad a3s was for most groups. It's a complicated problem, but I can tell you I have had to replace a half dozen raiders over the last year and a half that thought raid rewards in this game were not worth the time investment. Call it anecdotal if you like, but frankly I don't care. Raiders have been talking about savage and poor rewards since the expansion started and they have been leaving in droves for other games. They leave for many reasons, but poor rewards is definitely among them and splitting semantic hairs will not invalidate how raiders feel under rewarded in this game.

This is exactly it.

Maybe SE could pull in some tiny sliver of players who don't like or enjoy raiding, but will do it if the rewards are ridiculously over-the-top good, but it's a such a small subset of the player base that it's not going to have any significant impact on the game as a whole.

SE's time would be much better spent making content that people want to do than trying to bribe them to do content they don't enjoy.

What exactly do you want? Was the scores of casual content from LoV, Aquapolis, Diadem, Alex normal, PoTD etc etc etc not good enough? Are two 24 man raids a year not enough? Hunts, yokai watch, seasonal festivals... This game has casual content wall to wall.

lol, your idea is what we have in this game is now and it's a big flop.

Except the only thing in this entire list that counts as true endgame is Primals... and Primals are really just single-floor raids. They're heavily scripted eight-man fights with extremely punishing mechanics that are only efficiently tackled by statics.

All that other stuff you mentioned is irrelevant to everything we're talking about here.

This game needs diversified endgame content that is accessible by groups of different sizes. We need content that really capitalizes on the game's FC and LS social structures. We need content with a gate that differs from "repeat this until you memorize it."

We need this because, as the data plainly shows, most players are not raiders. They will never be raiders. SE can't entice people to play this game long-term if the only real endgame content is raiding.

So, then what do you want more of? VA? Weeping City? Here is the thing, you want content that capitalizes on communication devices like FC and LS but you want content that also requires no progression. We already have that in fates and in hunts. Really, hunts are exactly what you are describing, but hunts are also some of the worst gameplay in this game.

You know what made dyanamis fun? It was a challenge, it was heavily progression based. You didn't just get to fight dynamis lord, you had to work up to fight him. This Game is void of any of that depth. HOw fun would dynamis had been if the monsters could never kill you, you always made it to the last boss on time, and you could repeat until you got loot that week?

This game has no depth, it never will, and that's why it can't retain players. This game caters to the casual non-raiding community like no other game in the industry. Virtually all the content in the game is designed with you guys in mind. It does not work and that is reflected in the sub numbers.

That's why I'm not discussing how we should be making raiders happy. It's not that I don't want raiders to be happy -- the presence of raiding is fine by me, and I'd rather have SE make good raids than bad raids -- but that's not super relevant to the big-picture topic of how to improve player retention.

And that's the problem, you claim to be looking at the big picture, but you are not looking at the big picture. If we are talking meaningful progression content and rewards for casuals, what makes you think SE can even meet that need when it can't meet that need for raiders? That's the problem, The vertical progression latter has been broken in this game since 2.0 launch, it's just more exaggerated at the top (savage). Just look at the ilvl of the 24 mans, it has always seemed backwards. Why is new content rewarding items of inferior ilvl? Look at niddhog ex. He had no 240 accessories, only ilvl 235 glamour weapons. Niddhog Ex rewards were literally for alts or for players who did not raid or have a relic.

If you want this to honestly be fixed, the entire latter (big picture) has to be reworked from top to bottom. For there to be meaningful progression and rewards for casual non raiders players there also needs to be meaningful progression and rewards for raiders. There always needs to be more for players to strive for or envy. Even raiders, players who clear all the content, still chase parses and 7-man clears. There always needs to be a chase, for both groups and this dev team does not deliver on that for a multitude of reasons.

This game will get a huge slug of players at 4.0, just as it did at 3.0. Nobody expects this game to ever break 1 million active players, but the population will definitely get a nice influx. And the devs will have another chance to better retain that influx of players. And they need to figure it out, because with each expansion they'll have less of an influx to try to retain.

But that doesn't mean it's time to panic. Yoshi-P has said in the past the game could survive just fine on 500k subs. So if they can figure out how to engage more players, then the game will be fine.

Just take a look through my post history and see how many times my predictions about what savage was doing to the raid community came true. This game is not going to rebound. Yoshida is going to have to fight tooth and nail for those 500k active subs to keep this game viable. One more bad expansion like heavensward and this game is done. At least I get to say I told you so a lot. F2P is just around the corner.

[Ibi]

What exactly do you want? Was the scores of casual content from LoV, Aquapolis, Diadem, Alex normal, PoTD etc etc etc not good enough?

As Thayos already pointed out, you've completely missed the point. Again. We're not talking about casual content.

We're talking about challenging end game content other than Savage raiding. Even WoW is adding things like world events, Mythic+ dungeons in 7.0 and the large scale dungeon with the revamped Karazahn in 7.1. FFXI had a ton of endgame content that was nothing like Savage raiding, plenty of which could be adapted into content for XIV.

lol, your idea is what we have in this game is now and it's a big flop.

If you honestly believe that adding things like mounts, titles, and glamours to raiding would do more for sub retention than increasing the variety of challenging end game content, you're either delusional or hilariously out of touch.

[Mraj]

At present the only thing people have going for them in this game is having "x equipment" - which means very little already.

MMOs as a genre also build upon themselves in terms of gear, achievements ( personal and game recognized ), and trials overcome. For example, not everyone can instantly entering Heavensward content - one of the few gates for the game. The game also isn't just a pick up and play, though it's heavily marketed as being 'accessible'. The current system of gear equalization may seem friendly to new and returning players, but it doesn't have the content to back it up. That's the reason we have such huge population dips between patches or players that silently move on.

When we're all done with the easy to clear, just-do-it-to-get-it-done content, and standing around idling in Idyllshire, decked out in weekly gear for months on end with nothing to use it towards, I wonder if feelings of accomplishment and satisfaction are surfacing. By now, players are overly familiar with the patch cycles. The new dungeons are not making use of the gear upgrades we got - and that nearly everyone can get if they run content once a week - with several catch up periods only serving to further highlight the lack of content.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: There needs to be an endgame area - large and open world or multiple instanced areas that allow players to enjoy non-scripted content after they have all their gear, or have finished raiding. Perhaps Diadem will be refashioned for this purpose - or something else can be added. Right now, at the end of the patch cycle, we're all armed to the teeth, but we know that the next patch cycle won't provide much in the way of utilizing said gear outside of raids. Motivation to play drops because everything is obtainable easily and there's little incentive to do content. One could point to PvP, but that's been on a downturn and quick access to it for most players is not happening ( again, because of the current systems in place ).

Palace of the Dead has potential, and I'm interested in them expanding it, but it doesn't quite fill the niche I'm speaking of ( gear dependent ).

[zosia]

As Thayos already pointed out, you've completely missed the point. Again. We're not talking about casual content.

We're talking about challenging end game content other than Savage raiding. Even WoW is adding things like world events, Mythic+ dungeons in 7.0 and the large scale dungeon with the revamped Karazahn in 7.1. FFXI had a ton of endgame content that was nothing like Savage raiding, plenty of which could be adapted into content for XIV.

Why did players participate in Mythic dungeons in wow? Why did players participate in dynamis, sea, sky, etc? What are one of the primary end goal of these activities, especially repeat clears? Power progression. People wanted powerful cool looking gear that enhance their character. What you don't seem to understand is that you guys HAVE plenty of diversified content, it's just not very compelling to do. Why? Because the rewards suck from the top down. Casual players have 24 mans, new experts, hunts, gordias and midas normal, the relic. There is plenty of casual content, but the rewards and the acquisition methods for the relic are TERRIBLE!

Also, anything that gives eso, law, lore, etc is work towards progressing your characters power past the level cap I.E. END GAME CONTENT!!!!!!

If you guys wanted more challenging content, maybe there shouldn't have been so much defending of SE catering to the lowest common denominator. This is the bed the non-raiding casual community wanted, and it's glorious! That white armor polish definitely doubles as game polish too... maybe? lol

If you honestly believe that adding things like mounts, titles, and glamours to raiding would do more for sub retention than increasing the variety of challenging end game content, you're either delusional or hilariously out of touch.

Let me quote myself since you obviously missed it with your first read through.

It's a big part of the point. The raid rewards sucking is the same pattern dragging down the rest of the game.

Now, please pull your head out of rear please and understand that until the reward structure is fixed from top to bottom, for both raiders and casuals, that content will simply remain underwhelming and people will not be compelled to retain their sub. You can't just fix the bottom end of the reward latter and forget the top, that does not make for a sound latter.

[Chalbee]

It's nice to have something rare, a hard earned reward from a path few will follow.

That I can understand; I'm not trying to say raiders should get nothing special. I think I was a little miffed at the opinions of certain other posters with regard to casual players' value. I appreciate the reality check.

To address the grist of the topic at hand, would the raiding community accept a fixed, rare achievement that was less universally desirable than a mount or a special crafting item? Someone earlier suggested a reader board of some kind for world firsts, or perhaps we could have a unique title reserved for the first 100 people to clear a raid which can't be earned after the nerf patch. Those are things which are visible to everyone and prove your accomplishment. As long as the reward is a "thing" I fear people will always complain about the difficulty of obtaining it, which causes more strife between casual players and raiders. I'm sure there's a way to make raiders feel valued and recognized without breeding too much resentment from the casual playerbase.

[zosia]

That I can understand; I'm not trying to say raiders should get nothing special. I think I was a little miffed at the opinions of certain other posters with regard to casual players' value. I appreciate the reality check.

To address the grist of the topic at hand, would the raiding community accept a fixed, rare achievement that was less universally desirable than a mount or a special crafting item? Someone earlier suggested a reader board of some kind for world firsts, or perhaps we could have a unique title reserved for the first 100 people to clear a raid which can't be earned after the nerf patch. Those are things which are visible to everyone and prove your accomplishment. As long as the reward is a "thing" I fear people will always complain about the difficulty of obtaining it, which causes more strife between casual players and raiders. I'm sure there's a way to make raiders feel valued and recognized without breeding too much resentment from the casual playerbase.

I honestly don't care what happens to old raid content and gear once I have a new tier to work on. The entire reward structure needs to be redone in this game. Stuff like Niddhog ex, Thordan ex, Ravana EX should always drop raid ilvl gear and VA/WC should actually be relevant to gear progression.

I think that stuff like that fauslet and gordias mount should have like a 10% drop rate come 4.0. But other than that, I am not a fan of ahead of the curve achievements. I am not a fan of removing access to anything because it became outdated content. Maybe a feat of strength for server first clears would be nice, but that does not address the majority of raiders.

I simply think that gear should be meaningful and come from many different types of content.

If you want to be BiS, just like in FFXI, you should have to do many different forms of content. I have no issues with non-raiders getting 240 gear from something as innocuous killing a hunt mob. What I have a problem with is that the non-raiders can get an entire set of 240 gear from killing hunt monsters.

If I could change the game with the snap of my fingers, I would make two immediate changes followed by a host of smaller changes.

The very first thing that should change is the cycle of patches. Rewards are less impactful because of the pacing of gear upgrades in this game. Three months is just simply too short for any upgrades to feel special or powerful. I would change the pace and size of content patches to run on a 4-5 month schedule instead of the 3-4 month schedule they have now. This would allow for the game to slow the pace of gearing down slightly.

The next thing I would do is revamp gear completely. I would actually add bonuses to items, make mini sets, like two to three items sets. For example, Garuda, Titan, and Ifirit EX dropped rings, earrings, and bangles respectively. If you have all three, in addition to their normal stats, they would give you a bonus effect like TP refresh (1 TP per sec). Now not all set bonuses would come for raiding or ex primal content. I could see bonuses coming from gear that comes from different sources, like maybe a primal ring could have a bonus with a weeping city ring.

Either way, to be BiS you will need to play with all types of players across different types of content.

Furthermore, content like PotD, Diadem, Aquapolis, the 24 mans, will all be different sources for your BiS set in addition to having minor upgrades along the way to help you get to your BiS. Imagine if you had to go into diadem to get the best belt in the game made from killing giant dinosaur bosses? Then, to get the best ring in the game, you have to slay a lich lord and his army of minions in palace of the dead? To round out your set of interesting BiS gear with item effect, you have to kill Thordan EX for the best helm in the game. Do you kind of see what I am saying?

Now these ideas could be worked on obviously, but if I could snap my fingers now and make a wish, that would be the changes I would make. I would also make monsters tougher, dungeons harder, and hunt monsters more like world bosses. This would actually make these gear upgrades meaningful other than just stat sticks to stand around town with.

And there could still be tome gear at the end of the day with a lesser ilvl for people who don't want to bother with BiS. They would obviously be a little less powerful, but the inferior tome gear would keep them relevant to the current content. Better yet, crafted gear could be in-between BiS and tome gear, so even players that just want to tome farm can strive to upgrade their gear with better crafted pieces.