I guess it's time

[odintius]

This is what happens when you have a pure vertical progression game even deep dungeon when it comes out will be what 235 weapon at the end of it all at best another glamour option for most ppl. They need to add a little horizontal progression not to much at first but something that my 2 cents take as you will the gear is just boring to me at this point.

[Velhart]

Well who is to say what is wrong or outdated..I mean, people like what they like, all they can do suggest and say what they want to see in XIV.

Again you are dancing around the subject. I have said multiple times why they are outdated from personal experience and logic. I have yet to see real proof that it's concepts would work at a mass appeal. I only see a few people who played the game previously praising the idea. You have not told me how this works on a casual, midcore, and hardcore level.

I don't say this to defend ARR. I just see a conversation where its like trying to jump over a pothole to just end up falling off a cliff. Trying to replace a flawed but very workable system to an even more flawed system that is extremely hard to work with and balance. I don't ever want to see a job left out because they don't have a fire element skill/spell.

[Iromi]

This is what happens when you have a pure vertical progression game even deep dungeon when it comes out will be what 235 weapon at the end of it all at best another glamour option for most ppl. They need to add a little horizontal progression not to much at first but something that my 2 cents take as you will the gear is just boring to me at this point.

Yeah, until they start to add some horizontal progression...gearing is going to be boring. >.< I find myself caring less and less about gear in this game..lol. and yea, when that happens..something is wrong.

[FizzleofHyperion]

I'm so sick and tired of players here that come from WoW thinking this is an improvement of WoW.
This game was funded by FFXI players who had double subcriptions and FFXIV players during 1.0 who enjoyed it.

This game was never meant to be a WoW clone and I understand what the OP is trying to get at.

This HW is a repeat of ARR just face that part.

Bigger maps are still empty, general content gets done way to fast even by the socalled "casual".

Players get burned out really fast doing the same two dungeons over and over and over again having everything they worked so hard for beeing useless in 3-4 months because the new amazing currency is getting release with the same gears.

Glamours should never have been the true end game yet we are stuck with casuals who people seem to claim is the highest customer group of FFXIV and they are the ones keeping this game alive?

I rather have content to play then spend countless of hours AFK at FC house beeing kawaii taking screenshots trying to get attention from FFXIV facebook groups.

This game could have used some Horizontal progression and it could have been amazing should it have been given more time.

1.23 was slowly becoming amazing and they should have continued that path. I rather be playing with 1 million loyal Final Fantasy fans and players who want a game that will shape them and challenge them as players than spend countless of hours trying to deal with the rest of the playerbase who are just playing FFXIV because its currently trending and will just jump to the next MMORPG when it gets out. That could have kept FFXIV lifespan as long as FFXI imo.

I only play FFXIV because of the friendship and companionship this game has offered me on Ragnarok and Hyperion. The community is amazing but its slowly beeing infiltraded by a playerbase that think their "toon" and their "guild" is the way to go.

Fast levling a char is psychologicly proven that it keeps a player continuing to play because it feels like they have acheived something the down side of it fastlevling or higher ilvl will never fix a players skill.

I'm really holding on into some sort of hope that Yoshi P and his team will finally stop this repetable predictable formula thats currently going on in FFXIV and break the pattern and hopefully one day add real horizontal progression.

#MakeEorzeaGreatAgain

[Obysuca]

but there is no job that is straight up not allowed in end game like FFXI's. Go ask Puppetmasters if you do not believe me.

>_> Main pup since it came out and believe it or not, I was actually allowed to come pup for pretty much all of the relevant endgame(sky, sea, einherjar, salvage etc) so... lol And currently in XI, it's even easier for a pup to get in since they're able to tank just as well if not better than pld. My experience in 11 years of playing XI, if you didn't suck thal's balls at your job and were decently geared and didn't have half the server hating you, chances are, people would still invite you to things.

I don't ever want to see a job left out because they don't have a fire element skill/spell.

And that's why we can play every job on the same character >_> It's not like leveling is hard in XIV, people have been known to go 1-50 in under 2 days and if you actually put effort into it, you can go 50-60 in less than a week. If someone really wanted to get content done that required a certain element that only a few jobs have, they'd make the effort to level that job and use it. Right now, it doesn't really matter what job you come in XIV, everything is just so bland and whether you have 4 mnks, 4 drg, 4 nin or a mixture of those in a pt, theres really no difference at all. That's another reason why content is so dumbed down in XIV, they're trying too hard to make everything balanced which ends up creating boring content.

Nothing about the jobs makes them stand out, which is pretty boring in a mmo. How would you feel if you bought an rpg that boasted "20+ different classes to pick from!" and when you actually got into it, you realized they're all exactly the same, just different names? Pretty boring, right?

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah, until they start to add some horizontal progression...gearing is going to be boring. >.< I find myself caring less and less about gear in this game..lol. and yea, when that happens..something is wrong.

As far as my Monk is concerned I'm only going for the Lore gear for Ifrit glamour. Isn't that sad. Complete with that fancy new Ifrit mask.

Meanwhile my DRK is still decked out in full 220 crafted gear and has no desire to improve anything but the weapon because after overmelds who cares what gear they bring to the table.

ACC? Got it. Parry? Garbage. Sks? Worthless when you factor BW. Crit and Det? Never enough to go around.

Now if gear have set specific bonus abilities then that would be gravy but sadly won't happen because it might be a "desired" gear set if implemented. Or break balance.

[Lorielle]

Incoming I am wrong because I am wrong post.

OBJECTION!

To my understanding, all the formulas, rotations, stat building set ups people do to all jobs which have a decent levels of complexity to their job to even be somewhat good at it while taking on content that has you moving and more engaged? Yes...instant gratification. You know I could just let my weapon just to get 100TP and use Tachi: Gekko right? If we want to talk about simplifying a system.

Formulas? I mean, I feel like the only two formulas worth considering is Spell Speed and Skill Speed. Beyond those two, everything else is pretty cut and dry, not even worth noting much. Your secondary stats aren't exactly worth racking your head over. No need to make them sound -that- complex when in reality it is far from it. The only ones I see having any complexity in stat building are healers for DPSing purposes in raiding...which perhaps 80-90% of the population doesn't delve too deep in that aspect. The mechanics we've seen aren't exactly new ones. You could fumble your rotations on most of the content and still complete it because most of the content doesn't require you to -perfect- it to the T. Just do mechanics so you don't stress your healers as much. As long as your healer and tank are competent, they could actually carry most of the group.

A Samurai example? That's nice. XI's complexity(Samurai anyway) didn't derive solely from sitting there and getting TP to WS. It came from your gear setups and equipment swapping. You can be that Samurai who's just doing 8-10 hit builds, in turn doing terrible overall damage. Or you can be that Samurai with 5 hit builds. All depending on the gear you had available. But funny enough, just because you could achieve a 5 Hit Build doesn't mean it was the best thing because your speed/accuracy/attack could suffer just from stacking Store TP only.

Was the mob actions something to be concerned about? Not to the degree of XIV, but there are some fights that did require you to do more than just "sit there and spam WS".

You can't compare ARR's job balance to FFXI's. There is no job currently in the game that is on the side line. At worst there are preferred set ups based on your party composition, but there is no job that is straight up not allowed in end game like FFXI's. Go ask Puppetmasters if you do not believe me. And don't pretend in FFXI it was an elitist thing, even midcores had this concept.

Were you even around when Gordias and Astrologian first came to be? Do you remember the thousands of threads saying Astrologian was inferior to White Mage? Yes, this was a thing. A lot of people didn't take Astrologian because it "couldn't keep up". Now that is to say that the content wasn't impossible with one. People proved otherwise. But it put stress on the other players, more than what was necessary. Players opted to go WHM/SCH because it is that easier and safer. AST have been excluded back then. However, I'll let you have this one since you said "currently" after tons of changes and balances. Though I still don't see where you're seeing the exclusion of anything. I'm not really trying to be "blind" to prove a point because I remember LolDRG being a staple as I was one. There is ALWAYS going to be something more beneficial. Nothing gets "excluded" unless you're dealing with a ignorant player. Those exist everywhere. So I apologize your experiences differ so greatly from my own and it seems someone else in the thread disagrees as well.

The only thing complex about FFXI's battle system was the elemental wheel and skill chains. Those were two things that helped cause a lot of imbalance to the game. Even then nothing was more powerful than BLM's Thunder 4. They couldn't even balance potency right.

While elemental wheel and skill chains were quite complex in their own right, I disagree it was the only thing. Perhaps I don't see a real issue with the BLM's ability to do spike damage for their MP cost. If anything, I'd look over some Melee numbers because the number of WS they could put out was far greater DoT than what BLM was capable of. Though End Game was far different because you didn't necessarily want too many people feeding TP.

I offer criticism of this game's system and job balance all the time. I am more negative than positive on the decisions the developers make on this game. It doesn't mean I want them to tear everything down and put something even worse in here. The foundation is solid, the battle system is solid, it is only the execution can be left to be desired at times. I offer criticism that can actually have potential despite how silly it may be because it works in the context of the battle system. More than anyone just saying "just make it FFXI's battle system."

To each their own. But never once did I ask for "change it to XI's battle system". Only that I ask for more depth because the rotations from each job are so simple that it doesn't require much thought. Again, outside of MCH which is you at RNG's mercy. I suppose BLM is a fair example depending on the pace of the fight.

There is good from FFXI. It is just a shame what people want from it is what was wrong and outdated about it. I myself have always suggested we get a Nyzul Isle like content because it can work in the context of this game. Ohh and look...they did! Palace of the Dead coming in 3.35.

As someone else mentioned...Palace of the Dead is a good concept. But I don't hold my expectations high because of how the game rewards its players. It's going to be nothing more than glamour because everyone has to be on equal footing. We can't make this content "mandatory". Clear it once. What incentive do you have to go back in? "For the fun of it"? Sure. If that floats your boat, then power to you.

[MaikoRaines]

Did you read the thread at all? It has been said time and time again, XI is not the same so there is nothing to "go back to."

Unfortunately yes, and all I see are comparisons to this and that. I was playing XI when Zilart was released (the beginning basically) With this being said, I realize that XIV isn't the same either. It's always changing. This argument will be forever brought up and I think I'm done contributing to it. More productive banging my head into the wall.

[Velhart]

>_> Main pup since it came out and believe it or not, I was actually allowed to come pup for pretty much all of the relevant endgame(sky, sea, einherjar, salvage etc) so... lol And currently in XI, it's even easier for a pup to get in since they're able to tank just as well if not better than pld. My experience in 11 years of playing XI, if you didn't suck thal's balls at your job and were decently geared and didn't have half the server hating you, chances are, people would still invite you to things.

I never said no group/LS let a PUP in. I said PUP was looked down upon by the community and most definitely last in line or not even invited to parties. Sure you can put one in. Sure you can succeed with one. At the time though, pretty much every job could outperform you and bring more to the table. Not knocking on your choice for PUP, its just the example I give to prove SE did a poor job balancing.

And that's why we can play every job on the same character >_> It's not like leveling is hard in XIV, people have been known to go 1-50 in under 2 days and if you actually put effort into it, you can go 50-60 in less than a week. If someone really wanted to get content done that required a certain element that only a few jobs have, they'd make the effort to level that job and use it. Right now, it doesn't really matter what job you come in XIV, everything is just so bland and whether you have 4 mnks, 4 drg, 4 nin or a mixture of those in a pt, theres really no difference at all. That's another reason why content is so dumbed down in XIV, they're trying too hard to make everything balanced which ends up creating boring content.

All is well on the armory system, but simply having a job at 60 does not mean you are optimal for a party. You are ultimately focusing on one job to get gear for and that is your preference in a raid situation. Also, each job plays differently from one another and yes they do in fact have a large learning curve to be optimal in DPS/heal/tanking if you are actually serious about the game. Sure you can go in casual content and just hit the 1 button, but you are being carried by others.

Let me ask, what makes an elemental system so interesting? Ohh hes weak to fire? Wear fire armor and bring BLM's to cast fire. That is interesting? Different strokes, different folks.

Nothing about the jobs makes them stand out, which is pretty boring in a mmo. How would you feel if you bought an rpg that boasted "20+ different classes to pick from!" and when you actually got into it, you realized they're all exactly the same, just different names? Pretty boring, right?

Again, no job in this game plays exactly like one another. They may have similar roles, but how you execute them is very different. Ask a WHM who has never played SCH to jump on and be just as efficient healing that in raiding as a WHM. Ask a BRD to play MCH for the first time and see if he can pump as much DPS.

Formulas? I mean, I feel like the only two formulas worth considering is Spell Speed and Skill Speed. Beyond those two, everything else is pretty cut and dry, not even worth noting much. Your secondary stats aren't exactly worth racking your head over. No need to make them sound -that- complex when in reality it is far from it. The only ones I see having any complexity in stat building are healers for DPSing purposes in raiding...which perhaps 80-90% of the population doesn't delve too deep in that aspect. The mechanics we've seen aren't exactly new ones. You could fumble your rotations on most of the content and still complete it because most of the content doesn't require you to -perfect- it to the T. Just do mechanics so you don't stress your healers as much. As long as your healer and tank are competent, they could actually carry most of the group.

Ever heard of complexity through the content itself? Depth should lie in content, not how much you have to manage your gear outside the content.

A Samurai example? That's nice. XI's complexity(Samurai anyway) didn't derive solely from sitting there and getting TP to WS. It came from your gear setups and equipment swapping. You can be that Samurai who's just doing 8-10 hit builds, in turn doing terrible overall damage. Or you can be that Samurai with 5 hit builds. All depending on the gear you had available. But funny enough, just because you could achieve a 5 Hit Build doesn't mean it was the best thing because your speed/accuracy/attack could suffer just from stacking Store TP only.

I played SAM for 10 years, I know how it works. You are proving my point that battle systems are more than you make them out to be. I never said FFXI's systems were not complex necessarily. I said they complexity is heavily flawed and was pointing out you can go into content in that game only doing the minimal amount just like FFXIV and most games.

Was the mob actions something to be concerned about? Not to the degree of XIV, but there are some fights that did require you to do more than just "sit there and spam WS".

A lot of difficulty in FFXI was how much you were gated from trying again. Not saying FFXI was not hard (my god AV/PW), but if the bosses had the same level accessibility that ARR currently had, content in that game would be destroyed quickly. I won't really compare the difficulty differences between the two because the approach is different enough that it is hard to compare.

Were you even around when Gordias and Astrologian first came to be? Do you remember the thousands of threads saying Astrologian was inferior to White Mage? Yes, this was a thing. A lot of people didn't take Astrologian because it "couldn't keep up". Now that is to say that the content wasn't impossible with one. People proved otherwise. But it put stress on the other players, more than what was necessary. Players opted to go WHM/SCH because it is that easier and safer. AST have been excluded back then. However, I'll let you have this one since you said "currently" after tons of changes and balances. Though I still don't see where you're seeing the exclusion of anything. I'm not really trying to be "blind" to prove a point because I remember LolDRG being a staple as I was one. There is ALWAYS going to be something more beneficial. Nothing gets "excluded" unless you're dealing with a ignorant player. Those exist everywhere. So I apologize your experiences differ so greatly from my own and it seems someone else in the thread disagrees as well.

Yes I was. That is the nature of new jobs. Either come in incredibly OP, or come in very gimp. I apologize if I came off saying FFXIV was not immune to this. Both MCH and AST had issues and DRK some to an extent. Its either people don't know how to play the job, or a major oversight by the developers. How long did it take though? A cycle at worst? Difference with them is they focused on making them balance out as soon as they could. Jobs like PUP sat for -years- with barely getting touched and just now found some relevancy after 10+ years of it's existence because they couldn't properly balance the job with the systems in place. They dug themselves a hole. At least ARR's system that can manage because they are set on simpler stat/potency allocations. It actually makes my point more valid that people are quick to ditch a job if it doesn't bring much to the table. That is a system people apparently want back.

While elemental wheel and skill chains were quite complex in their own right, I disagree it was the only thing. Perhaps I don't see a real issue with the BLM's ability to do spike damage for their MP cost. If anything, I'd look over some Melee numbers because the number of WS they could put out was far greater DoT than what BLM was capable of. Though End Game was far different because you didn't necessarily want too many people feeding TP.

FFXI were strategic fights. I won't ever argue that. The issue I am talking about is job balance. Job balance was absolutely horrifying.

To each their own. But never once did I ask for "change it to XI's battle system". Only that I ask for more depth because the rotations from each job are so simple that it doesn't require much thought. Again, outside of MCH which is you at RNG's mercy. I suppose BLM is a fair example depending on the pace of the fight.

It does have depth. Content itself is the depth. Why do people believe things like element wheels and 50 different stat allocations for 50 different situations is depth? Its needless complexity and the depth of the content itself suffers for it. Successful games to me are ones that can make very in depth content while keeping the system simple. Please look to Super Mario Bros. for an example. Weird example but its a good example of letting content be the depth.

As someone else mentioned...Palace of the Dead is a good concept. But I don't hold my expectations high because of how the game rewards its players. It's going to be nothing more than glamour because everyone has to be on equal footing. We can't make this content "mandatory". Clear it once. What incentive do you have to go back in? "For the fun of it"? Sure. If that floats your boat, then power to you.

That seems like a different topic. Go offer your feedback that it should be more rewarding if it ends up not being so. Not saying ARR is perfect, it has enough issues for me to write a novel, but not so much that I completely tear it down and put a worse system up.

[MagiusNecros]

Unfortunately yes, and all I see are comparisons to this and that. I was playing XI when Zilart was released (the beginning basically) With this being said, I realize that XIV isn't the same either. It's always changing. This argument will be forever brought up and I think I'm done contributing to it. More productive banging my head into the wall.

"XIV" and "changing" in one sentence. Thanks for the laugh. But XIV hasn't really changed at all. Take out the MSQ content and directly compare the differences between 2.0 and 3.0. I wager you'll find very little has changed.