Give Tanks Tank Stance at Level 15

[winsock]

Where is your source for this information?

What I am saying is, if a DPS class has poor DPS in a low lvl dungeon, the worst that typically happens is that the dungeon takes a bit longer.

If a tank has poor threat during a low lvl dungeon, the worst that typically happens is the the dungeon takes a bit longer.

If you want to implement tank stance at low levels due to "mistake-proofing" as you said earlier, should you not also mistake-proof DPS classes as well?
Should any new players be allowed to perform poorly?

[Mattelot]

What I am saying is, if a DPS class has poor DPS in a low lvl dungeon, the worst that typically happens is that the dungeon takes a bit longer.

If a tank has poor threat during a low lvl dungeon, the worst that typically happens is the the dungeon takes a bit longer.

If you want to implement tank stance at low levels due to "mistake-proofing" as you said earlier, should you not also mistake-proof DPS classes as well?
Should any new players be allowed to perform poorly?

Ok, I wanted to clarify that it was you opinion, not documented information.

If you feel that mistake-proofing in DPS needs to be implemented, you're welcome to suggest a method on doing so. It's generally only necessary in where systematic errors occur. You don't want to create fixes if nobody is having an issue.

[Ilan]

Marking trash is inefficient. Every DD has a high potency DoT, and most of them have AoE attack options. Focusing on a single target at a time ultimately costs more GCDs than killing everything together, and everyone should learn this.

If there is not a very specific, heavy hitting mob with particularly troubling mechanics that needs to be taken out of the picture ten seconds ago, the DDs should be switching to higher health targets as the combat progresses, letting things die to AoEs or DoTs, and tanks should be using AoE enmity generation, even if it does no damage because the DDs will be able to do more damage through DoT and AoE than the tank loses from not doing damage moves.


And if the tanks do leverage their AoE enmity generators, they'll build enough hate while the DDs disperse theirs, and they won't have any hate problems even without tank stance.

Oh i know that. Most Tanks don't mark (me neither but i don't have that big hate issues in low Level) and even if they do they just focus on that 1 Mob. And in the later Level they will learn to keep hate of everything, but it doesn't change the fact that PLD could use his Shield Oath at Level 30.

[Lemuel81]

Only tank that i see having issues below 20 are paladins. actually when paladins get their dps stance swordoath i had very little problems. on warrior i had no problems and i do not see darknights having too much issues if they rotate targets properly.

[winsock]

Ok, I wanted to clarify that it was you opinion, not documented information.

If you feel that mistake-proofing in DPS needs to be implemented, you're welcome to suggest a method on doing so. It's generally only necessary in where systematic errors occur. You don't want to create fixes if nobody is having an issue.

This is my opinion. I don't feel like I was trying to obscure that and apologize if I came off that way. Note too that feeling tanks should have tank stance at 15 is also an opinion. My current stance on this issue is "undecided", so I am genuinely curious in hearing the argument in favor of tank stance at low level.

I guess what I'm asking is:
Why is tanking a problem that should be solved by lowering the skill ceiling / "mistake-proofing" as opposed to another method like new player education?

To keep threat on a GLD:
* Have up to date gear.
* Spam flash.
^ this is fact btw, I encourage to try it if you don't buy it.

To me anyway, I don't find these 2 requirements to be unreasonable. If a tank fails to meet these requirements at low level, the penalties (in my opinion) are are reasonable.

Why is tank stance preferable to player education?
If you don't like the comparison to DPS, I might rephrase like: all classes, especially in the hands of new players, make mistakes. Why should tanks be mistake-proof?

[Canadane]

I only ever see issues on gladiators who don't use Flash enough.
Nothing else. It's an easy fix.

[Mattelot]

*snip*

As someone who works in business and has overseen training, it's human nature. We try to accommodate to the simplest person. Other MMO games I have played, people love to say "do research." Statements like that are too vague. People are playing a game. They want to pick up a controller (or keyboard/mouse) and "play." Many do not want to feel like they have to be a scholar (no pun intended... yeah... kinda) in order to play a video game. Sure, more serious players look things up but to what extent? People read guides on how to do this raid or that FATE. Somebody at one point had to endure those things without a guide. What if there were no tanking stances at all? Imagine how much more complicated it would be to hold threat and the small % who could still do it would post their "git gud" replies.

[Claymore65]

Many do not want to feel like they have to be a scholar (no pun intended... yeah... kinda) in order to play a video game.

I understand keeping things simple but..."update your gear to the latest vendor armor and use the latest free weapon given to you by class quests" and "start with a shield lob and two flashes, then mix in flash every once in a while" is not something so massively difficult that the average player can't do it. Sure, they might struggle a little bit through Satasha. A decent player will at least attempt to give advice at that point. There's no shame in not mastering your class from the beginning, and most new players are reasonable enough to take advice. Give a little advice, and they'll be better off in the long run than letting them crutch on a tank stance many levels before it's important.

Plus, keep in mind the penalties for failure are extremely small at that level. In Satasha, most other classes can take a beating for awhile. Healing in Satasha is literally "Cast a Cure every 30s or so". The punishment for failure isn't likely to be a wipe.

Normally I dislike "git gud" replies, but we're not asking new players to spend hours looking up and mastering perfect rotations. It's literally "Tell them to use flash" and "use decent equipment". That's all there is to it. If they still can't keep aggro, then the problem likely lies elsewhere. Maybe it's high level DPS not focusing on the same enemy, or a healer just spamming Medica. Now, I'll admit that the 30-40 range for Paladin is pretty rough (Shield Oath should come before Sword Oath), but that doesn't last long either.

[Kindread]

I have very recently leveled up both a WAR to 40 and a PLD to 35ish.

I have to say the dungeons were so amazingly easy to hold threat on that a tank stance would have been overkill. The RARE occasion when threat was an issue was when a DPS was synced down from max level. I would tell them there was no way I could hold off them, usually followed by some sort of acknowledgement that it did not matter, and away we went.

Giving MRD and GLD the tank stance from their advanced job could also create issues in the future if we ever get any other DPS focused jobs that stem off from MRD or GLD as their primary class. You would have a DPS that could go into tank stance, making all other tanks obsolete for 90% of the content, pushing out significantly more DPS while still holding threat and having a mitigation boost that would be enough to run most group content.

[Fluffernuff]

Giving MRD and GLD the tank stance from their advanced job could also create issues in the future if we ever get any other DPS focused jobs that stem off from MRD or GLD as their primary class. You would have a DPS that could go into tank stance, making all other tanks obsolete for 90% of the content, pushing out significantly more DPS while still holding threat and having a mitigation boost that would be enough to run most group content.

IIRC, it's been specifically stated there wont be any more new CLASSES, so i highly doubt they would add JOBS that stem from any (I.E DRK/AST/MCH). HOWEVER, there is already a JOB what fits this mold- DRG. I admit I didn't think about that implication either. But you also have to remember, just because a class has a skill, doesnt mean that skill HAS to be cross-class.
I mean, does DRG get Overpower? Berserk? Thrill of Battle?