Give Tanks Tank Stance at Level 15

[Sarcatica]

You are definitely going to lose aggro in lower levels if you don't use your AOE aggro skills repeatedly where DPS and Healer are just splitting dps across all 3 mobs, even worse if DPS are using huge CDs on them. It doesn't have to do with the ability to tank in Savage and all that.

[Kaeoni]

They could streamline the process, Wouldn't be anything wrong with doing that. But doing what the OP suggested; I don't think it would necessarily open tanking classes up to "The masses". I remember in 2.0 Paladin my first tank, pre flash Enmity buff and w/e else changed... Not going to lie and say it was easy to tank in those days. But It wasn't impossible. It just meant rotating flash a bit more frequently. The problem is that players aren't using the tools that are currently already in their kit as well as they should. Which means more flashes, overpowers and Unleashes than you'll normally be doing later on in the game. The Stances are a type of reward. They free you up to do better and more interesting things.

The Issue isn't "tanks need their tank stance earlier" It's "Tanks don't know how to use their toolkit effectively" And that's because they're new. It's understandable. 90-95% of the time tanks at low levels have the ability to hold threat. They don't because of bad information, habits, not reading tooltips, misunderstandings. Lots could be wrong. But the main problem is faulty pattern recognition. Something Human beings are probably the best at in the entire world.

Doing the same thing over and over again resulting in your healer dying over and over again? Maybe you're doing something wrong, JUST MAYBE. Without asking for help, any dummy can rationally come to the conclusion "Well maybe i'm doing something wrong, I should try something else". Making something faceroll like Sch's fairy main healing isn't right either. Just because that exists doesn't mean it should be the meta for early game. Why even give dps classes buttons to press in early game? Let them Auto-attack to freedom! RIGHT!?! RIGHT!?!?! *Cough* You're playing a video game. You're suppose to push some buttons. Some new Tanks just aren't pushing the right ones is all.

[Jas710]

The problem is that players aren't using the tools that are currently already in their kit as well as they should. Which means more flashes, overpowers and Unleashes than you'll normally be doing later on in the game. The Stances are a type of reward. They free you up to do better and more interesting things.

Sums it all up, and it's what all experienced tanks advise newer tanks all the time and ends up solving.

So bottom line is, look at what you might be doing that needs improvement before assuming there's a problem with the game. Applies to all classes and jobs.

[Mattelot]

*snip*

I do agree with you. They do not need tank stances at 15, in my opinion. Sword and Shield Oath should have had their levels swapped.

Sums it all up, and it's what all experienced tanks advise newer tanks all the time and ends up solving.

So bottom line is, look at what you might be doing that needs improvement before assuming there's a problem with the game. Applies to all classes and jobs.

I take what self-proclaimed "experienced" players say with a grain of salt since I see so much conflicting information amongst the ones that deem themselves "cream of the crop."

It's hard for someone to look at what they're doing that needs improvement because most don't understand what they're doing wrong.

I've played MMOs that introduce required quests that require you to use certain abilities that you acquire which helps someone visually see how they help them. Tooltips are not a great source of information... and this is coming from an Astrologian who learned Royal Road. Each person learns in a different way. Some call it "hand holding" while others call it "mistake proofing."

[Kaeoni]

It's hard for someone to look at what they're doing that needs improvement because most don't understand what they're doing wrong.

If punching a coconut doesn't open the coconut, then it doesn't take a genius to figure out that further punching the coconut will not result in you ingesting it's deliciously creamy white liquid.

-Kaeoni 2016

[Anienai]

If punching a coconut doesn't open the coconut, then it doesn't take a genius to figure out that further punching the coconut will not result in you ingesting it's deliciously creamy white liquid.

-Kaeoni 2016

Been sitting on that one for awhile?

[Jpec07]

I can't remember if I've replied to this one yet or not (and I can't be bothered to look), but if I have, my views have likely changed from "somewhat disagree" to "neutral."

For funsies, I went into DF roulette on my well-geared DRK, with some really well-geared folks from my FC, to help introduce our new friend to dungeons. We got into Tam Tara and I was kind of surprised at first just how much enmity our BLM and SMN were able to pump out at that level. Even Unleash spam only gave me a slight edge on the big pulls I was doing, and it made me realize that a poorer-geared tank (read: a tank in leveling whites and vendor gear) might not be able to keep up.

I've thought about how challenging tanking was for me, leveling through the content in 2.55 for the first time before they buffed tank enmity. I've thought about how it helped me learn how to generate more enmity, and how to cycle through my targets to secure my hate lead. It taught me the importance of marking the target kill order, and clicking off of Regen and healing statuses before any pull. I've thought about how damage spikes from big pulls taught me how to use my cooldowns effectively. But even with these lessons, which were hard-taught by what was then challenging content for me, and even with competitive gear, I was still having to fight a lot harder than I'm used to in that dungeon run.

I didn't need my stance at 15, but I've been tanking in some form or another for six years, and I know how to think about threat/enmity, and how to keep track of it and keep ahead of it with a limited toolkit. But new tanks might not have that knowledge and experience to draw from. I enjoyed how much work keeping hate was in 15-40 content, but new tanks might need that crutch. So, for my part, I'm neutral. I can see both sides, and both sides have merit, and I will not bemoan any change or lack thereof.