Give Tanks Tank Stance at Level 15

[Parawill]

I have this issue on my Black Mage when I get thrown into Stasha or anything pre-Haukke Manor. I sometimes actually have to spam Blizzard instead of Fire because I generate more enmity than they do with Fire. I also have Quelling Strikes as my first cross-class skill, but that's not always up for every single pull.

[Rongway]

And in how many Dungeons will you have Players who follow the Marks, especially if they are synced? As a Tank Player i can tell you, its maybe 10% who just attack the marked Mobs. For me its fine, but for a unexperienced Player it will be no fun, at least not as GLA/PLD. WAR and DRK are totaly fine.

More than that, how often do players mark anything at all in those low dungeons? There was a thread somewhere around here that brought up how some late-game players don't bother because it's all trash, or they'll even actively attack the wrong mobs because "screw you I know what I'm doing."

Marking trash is inefficient. Every DD has a high potency DoT, and most of them have AoE attack options. Focusing on a single target at a time ultimately costs more GCDs than killing everything together, and everyone should learn this.

If there is not a very specific, heavy hitting mob with particularly troubling mechanics that needs to be taken out of the picture ten seconds ago, the DDs should be switching to higher health targets as the combat progresses, letting things die to AoEs or DoTs, and tanks should be using AoE enmity generation, even if it does no damage because the DDs will be able to do more damage through DoT and AoE than the tank loses from not doing damage moves.


And if the tanks do leverage their AoE enmity generators, they'll build enough hate while the DDs disperse theirs, and they won't have any hate problems even without tank stance.

[MistakeNot]

I was under the impression that low-level tanking was supposed to get tanks ready for their job for the near future. I think the experience teaches new tanks that:
a) You will always benefit if your gear is at or above the recommended level of the dungeon

Certainly true, but until you reach level 50 your average gear level will be lower than your own level - so if you do dungeons at the minimum entrance level most of your gear will be below the dungeon level. No way to avoid that.

[MistakeNot]

Marking trash is inefficient. Every DD has a high potency DoT, and most of them have AoE attack options.

Not at low levels - there most of them have neither AoE or DoT attacks.

[Fluffernuff]

I'm pretty torn on a suggestion like this.
On one hand you give a tool to new players in order to fill their role easier... assuming they pay attention and read their skills

On the other, if you give too much too soon, you leave them unprepared for later content

Frankly, from personal experience the past month or so, the latter is ALREADY a bit out of hand. "First time" tanks all the way up until gubal library that dont even understand Flash/OP/Unleash can be used more than once per pull. Tanks that use/stack CDs on the pull. Tanks that try to replicate what they see and overpull. I understand leveling dungeons are hardly a metric to go by, but seriously. these are the fundamentals that should be learned by NO LATER than Cutter's Cry. and thats ONLY if you decided to solo-main PLD as a newbie.

but lets get back to Sastasha. that's really the crux of discussion here. level 15-18.
There is a fundamental problem with early level tanking. One im scratching my head as to why it's being overlooked-

of all 3 roles, Tanking is the ONLY role that can be ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE- and that possiblity only grows with less and less experience. as far as I'm concerned, thats unacceptable. Even before we factor in "fun" or "frustration".

what part of sastasha makes DPS unable to do any damage for an entire run?

what makes the healer unable to heal for the entire dungeon?

you're a 16 GLD in hall of novice gear? your healer's a SCH w/cleric stance, and your DPS are a BRD and a BLM. both level synced 60s getting their daily ESO/LORE. GG. you can't tank. period. at all. youre a 4th tier DPS. Flash and Riot blade arent gonna save you. how is that even remotely OK?

Look, I'm all for rewarding gameplay, but its far from "fine" to throw in your new players into outright impossibility "for their own good". all for what? a sense of pride for those who sit on their thrones? It's perfectly fine for them because you already went through it? the system as it is now is horribly skewed and imbalanced AGAINST tanking. I don't think this is a solution by any means, but there needs to be one.

[LunaFaye]

not the way to tank by all means but when it comes to satasha you can easily wing it. even with lvl 60's that are sync'd down and in full 240+ gear.

Answer is flash/overpower. Again it's not what you should be doing as a tank but it works. Pull -> spam flash/overpower if you couldn't be bothered to get flash as warrior lol.

Now lets not start with but then you do no dmg... Satasha is a lvl 15 dungeon no matter if you have a group of fully geared sync'd down veterans or new players, you won't need the tanks dps (does he even have any at that lvl? lol)
Let's also not argue with mp/tp management because it's satasha, the mobs not gonna live long enough for that to actual matter or becoming an issue.

Giving tanks their stances at level 15 shouldn't be an option, not to mention that it wont work with the job/class/lore system. Anyways, I liked that they added hall of novice and people now maybe understand how to play their jobs, but I think what SE should be adding is a longer training section for tanks. With most of the skill descriptions unclear and no actual explanation of the skills/job itself (not talking about looking up guides via google/youtube/twitch) it isn't surprising that newer players or even veterans new to a class/job are struggling, but I think something like that would help them more than adding a tank stance to lvl 15 characters.

[Rongway]

Marking trash is inefficient. Every DD has a high potency DoT, and most of them have AoE attack options.

Not at low levels - there most of them have neither AoE or DoT attacks.

ARC06: Venomous Bite (220 -> 340 at Lv24)
ARC30: Windbite (360)
PGL15: Touch of Death (270)
LNC30: Phlebotomize (410)
THM06: Thunder (270 -> 330 at Lv22)
ACN02: It's ACN.
ROG08: Mutilate (240)
MCH06: Lead Shot (310 -> 490!! at Lv14)

All of them have DoTs pre Shield Oath, and the only one that doesn't get one by 15 is LNC.

AoEs at
ACN01: Blizzard II (50 per target)
THM18: Fire II (maths more complicated)
ARC18: Quick Nock (110 per target)
MCH18: Spread Shot (100 per target)



Also consider

The implication that a low level DPS can out-produce the enmity of a Tank's combo, flash, overpower, or Unleash is mathematically inaccurate at best.

Judah's statement is correct. The above actions are the highest potency GCDs that each class has, and not one of them is more potent than a tank's AoE generator, all of which are around 600 potency per target, without a tank stance.

[Yasuhiro]

I'm all for this but I do think without tank stance until level 40? (forgot when Paladin get Sheild Oath) it trains them to keep aggro with all their effort so they can be masters at it with their tank stance.

[Chyro]

Well.. then at least that lv43 -gladiator- I had in stone vigil recently would've had tank stance.. xD

I do agree that tanks in the very-low level dungeons should have it easier to do their job.
It's silly how it's the only role that under some circumstances just can't do its job in these dungeons.

[Mattelot]

The penalty for the tank not having good threat at this level is pretty much the same as a DPS not having good DPS at this level.

Where is your source for this information?

Judah's statement is correct. The above actions are the highest potency GCDs that each class has, and not one of them is more potent than a tank's AoE generator, all of which are around 600 potency per target, without a tank stance.

Actually, it was one of those superfluous statements that people make when they want to sound like they're making a good point yet they're going off on a tangent.