Give Tanks Tank Stance at Level 15

[winsock]

That's where mistake-proofing comes into play.

The penalty for the tank not having good threat at this level is pretty much the same as a DPS not having good DPS at this level.

Should mistake-proofing be added to DPS as well?
Should new players be allowed to perform poorly?

[Lan_Mantear]

This request is moot. Each of the tank stances are job specific. So even if they lowered them to level 1, Gladiators and Marauders aren't going to see any benefit.

[Fynlar]

Lowbie tanking currently does not function properly against DPS that know what they're doing. When you can spam your hate combo on a single enemy (which is exactly what the Hall of the Novice instructs tanks to do against a single enemy, by the way) and still not be able to maintain hate -- something which *easily* happens prior to getting the 3rd part of the hate combo -- something is wrong with the system.

Granted, in lowbie dungeons this is unlikely to actually keep you from succeeding anyways. But for all the problems we have nowadays with not having enough tanks around for content, this sort of thing does not exactly encourage new tanks to keep playing the role.

This request is moot. Each of the tank stances are job specific. So even if they lowered them to level 1, Gladiators and Marauders aren't going to see any benefit.

It's pretty obvious (to me anyway, apparently not to you) that by asking for an action to be reduced to level 15 it is inferred that they're implying that it should become a base class action instead of a job action, since jobs are not available until level 30...

[Judah_Brandt]

The implication that a low level DPS can out-produce the enmity of a Tank's combo, flash, overpower, or Unleash is mathematically inaccurate at best.

The only thing wrong with the system is your perception of it. There is a far better solution to the problem you perceive with this, one way better than baby-proofing the system and cheapening the game. Instruct them how to get better. See what I did there? I offered a solution that isn't terrible.

[MistakeNot]

The implication that a low level DPS can out-produce the enmity of a Tank's combo, flash, overpower, or Unleash is mathematically inaccurate at best.

The only thing wrong with the system is your perception of it. There is a far better solution to the problem you perceive with this, one way better than baby-proofing the system and cheapening the game. Instruct them how to get better. See what I did there? I offered a solution that isn't terrible.

Who said anything about low level DPS? The problem is when a high level DPS with godd gear is involved. Even downscaled they can rip hate off a low-level tank, no matter how well the tank plays.
Oh, the tank may well be able to eventually re-gain aggro by spamming their enmity-building skills, but not before the mob in question is long dead. (And if you spam Flash/Overpower you will quickly run out of MP/TP anyway.)

[Claymore65]

I mean, isn't the standard low level starting Tanking Technique for Paladin "Shield Lob ==> Flash ==> Flash ==> Savage Combo", mixing in Flash every once in a while? If you do that, have decent (i.e. white up to level gear), you shouldn't really have much trouble maintaining hate. At the very least I never did when I started. If a newbie tank isn't doing that, try and give them some advice instead.

There is another factor to consider though: Most players don't stay in the 15-30 range for very long. Just by doing MSQ alone you'll level through that very quickly. I do wholeheartedly agree that Paladin's should get Shield Oath before Sword Oath though.

[Alistaire]

Certain levels even an equally-geared dps will outdo a gld...lookin @ you archer.

[Enkonda]

I was under the impression that low-level tanking was supposed to get tanks ready for their job for the near future. I think the experience teaches new tanks that:
a) You will always benefit if your gear is at or above the recommended level of the dungeon
b) How to mend bad situations like losing aggro
c) How to suck it up if you lose aggro
d) How to deal with DPS who can't wait for you to maintain enough aggro before going wild
It feels like giving tank-stance at that level would make it easier and indeed produce more tanks but good tanks?
Really, a Shield Lob -> Flash -> Flash (Another flash if you're feeling festive) -> savage combo should be enough. Then, maybe one final flash before finishing up and moving onto the next target.

[MistakeNot]

I was under the impression that low-level tanking was supposed to get tanks ready for their job for the near future. I think the experience teaches new tanks that:
a) You will always benefit if your gear is at or above the recommended level of the dungeon

Certainly true, but until you reach level 50 your average gear level will be lower than your own level - so if you do dungeons at the minimum entrance level most of your gear will be below the dungeon level. No way to avoid that.

[Judah_Brandt]

OK, so you want a Tank to just not learn anything, be mindless, and be even worse off for Duty Finder later when they might just have to press two buttons instead of one. Get out of here. You're taking niche situations and applying them to majority. It's pointless. For every one instance of a poor party with people who can't play their respective roles, we ignore ten that do so properly. Tanking at low level isn't even hard. The stat difference at level 15 sync is marginal and easily overcome by proper technique. If your ideology is that it's too hard to Tank early so we have less tanks, good. I'd prefer that we have ones that at least know what they are doing having learned from level one up.