SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[DWolfwood]

have you seen any movies or anime, where samurai, is anything else than "DPS"?

I actually started this post by referencing Log Horizon, you should watch it sometime.

not every samurai was heavy armored, most of them was using chain mail

If you could find a single instance of them using chainmail, I'd like to see it. Usually their armor was woven scales, the strongest being iron scales and plates.

Anyhoo.

To the people saying that SAM should be a DPS oriented OT, like WAR, this presents a major problem because WAR is not an OT because it makes a bad MT. It's OT because PLD/DRK make horrible OTs. WAR is actually the strongest MT as well. They need to make all tanks as strong as WAR, not just SAM.

To the people saying SAM as a tank would be boring and have the same niche as DRK, I think you underestimate how many creative ways they could go about making a Tank class. Parrying is not the main mechanic of DRK, Dark Arts and managing MP is. Stacks are the main mechanic of WAR, and PLD is intended to be straight forward. The way they design a class is around how it should play first, and then they design the look of it (i.e. DRK vs SAM) and incorporate it.

To the people saying we need a Mage tank, we have DRK. It revolves around MP management already, so making another tank revolve around that would be just as redundant as another 2-handed weapon tank. Plus, I'm not sure you've thought out the defense aspect when you say that they could just cast spells. Surely you realize how under-powered this would be as time went on. They'd have to either give lighter clothing the same defense as heavy armor or rework defense entirely.

[Kazrah]

To the people saying we need a Mage tank, we have DRK. It revolves around MP management already, so making another tank revolve around that would be just as redundant as another 2-handed weapon tank. Plus, I'm not sure you've thought out the defense aspect when you say that they could just cast spells. Surely you realize how under-powered this would be as time went on. They'd have to either give lighter clothing the same defense as heavy armor or rework defense entirely.

DRK isn't really a mage, rather an emo tin can with a few magic tricks. MP management could be done defensively rather than offensively such as partial MP shielding (some damage reduction and dealt as MP damage) and have far better MP restoring abilities and traits to offset that, or even have a pet that intercepts a portion of damage taken. The "tank stance" buff could do something like increasing physical defense to match magical defense, which casters can caster gear typically have loads of as baseline.

I think you underestimate how many creative ways they could go about making a Tank class.

[DWolfwood]

Your words.

I'm not saying they couldn't do it. I'm saying using the argument that we need a mage tank because we have a 2-handed sword tank already is a pointless argument since we already have a mage tank as well.

Edit - To elaborate, I was referencing the play-style when I mentioned creativity, something they'd already have to build up from scratch, whereas the mage tank reworks the entire defense system already in place. (This confusion happens when you quote people out of context.)

Yes, they could rework everything, and it would also take quite a bit more effort. Whether you think that's worth it or not is one thing. What I'm pointing out is that there is no good argument out there that goes like, "we have too much _____, so we should make ____ a DPS(or Tank.)" These arguments need to just be taken out of discussion. New jobs = more variety, not less.

My suggestion is STILL, make a SAM Tank AND DPS. Shogun Tank, and Ronin DPS.

[Nalien]

To the people saying we need a Mage tank, we have DRK.

Dark Knight is not a mage, it's knight that uses MP.

For me at least, when I ask for something like a mage tank or melee healer, I simply mean a tank or healer that is visibly distinct from current ones. For healers this is terrible, they're all mages. For tanks, Warrior adds some variety at least. Dark Knight may use MP, but it has 0 cast times and is very much a Knight. At best it's a hybrid, but it most certainly isn't a mage tank. Dark Knights main weapon is its sword, not the half dozen or so spells it insta-casts...

Meanwhile, I can't imagine it would be too hard to have an INT based tank like Blue or Red Mage, those would very much be mage style tanks. The only issue comes with gear; Do they wear Fending or Casting? Well, I'd say there is no problem having them tank in Casting sets... It can't be too hard to have the Jobs MT stance function fairly similarly to Clerics Stance... Likewise for a "melee" healer like Dancer, it can share gear with Ninja, but a stance could easily convert DEX into MND for the purpose of healing... It can still sit out at the back, throwing ranged weapons instead of casting Stone/Ruin/Malefic and Dancing to heal party members, instead of casting Cure/etc. That's very much distinct from the current trio of mage healers IMO, and the same thing applies for something like a mage tank. Dark Knight isn't remotely distinct enough from Paladin or Warrior, while a Blue Mage tank very much could be.

[DWolfwood]

Dark Knight is not a mage, it's knight that uses MP.

For me, it's one that uses magic.

Dark Knights main weapon is its sword, not the half dozen or so spells it insta-casts...

DRK's main mechanic is managing MP for Darkside and Dark Arts. The other aspects of its toolkit are really weak in defining it. You can't really say that it's defined by being a melee and then say that WAR is more unique, but more importantly a casting tank would require a method of casting without interruption. This game is simply too fast paced to accommodate a caster tank right now. It's why people raged about Clemency and got the change they did, and also a big reason why it's still not used that much.

Meanwhile, I can't imagine it would be too hard to have an INT based tank like Blue or Red Mage, those would very much be mage style tanks. The only issue comes with gear; Do they wear Fending or Casting? Well, I'd say there is no problem having them tank in Casting sets... It can't be too hard to have the Jobs MT stance function fairly similarly to Clerics Stance...

Using a stance to convert caster gear to tank gear isn't as simple as Cleric. Cleric merely swaps MND with INT, so yes you could swap INT with STR, but where does the extra VIT come from? Do you want the mage tank to have a tiny pool of HP? If you boost their base HP, their HP will quickly be dwarfed by the increase in ilevel. What stat converts into their defense? Even if you do this, it would mean tanking w/o tank stance becomes even worse than what tanks do now since they now have caster defense/HP without it. Of course it can be done, but It's more complex than you're suggesting.

Likewise for a "melee" healer like Dancer, it can share gear with Ninja, but a stance could easily convert DEX into MND for the purpose of healing... It can still sit out at the back, throwing ranged weapons instead of casting Stone/Ruin/Malefic and Dancing to heal party members, instead of casting Cure/etc. That's very much distinct from the current trio of mage healers IMO

What is so wrong with a RDM healer? RDM are known to be jacks of all trades. That means they shouldn't be able to take hits like a warrior or paladin, but should have some means of shielding. They shouldn't have the dps of monk or dragoon, but have decent dps along with a rapier. They shouldn't have the healing of white mage, but should be able to heal a party. To me this clearly points to it being a frontline melee healer. Take all your ideas and place them on RDM and it starts to make sense to me. DNC should be a frontline support job in the future.

Dark Knight isn't remotely distinct enough from Paladin or Warrior, while a Blue Mage tank very much could be.

Blue Mage could be almost anything. I do agree that it could be a tank, but I think it would take a considerable amount of effort in comparison to something like Samurai. The gear/defense problem is not one to take lightly. Samurai can wear all current tank gear without any real questions. Perhaps the only gear that looks odd is the traditional knight looking sets and the Gerolt Masterworks set, but I doubt anyone would really be bothered by this. Blue Mage has less of identity, but I still don't see them wearing the majority of tank sets that are currently out there, whereas it could easily become this frontline caster DPS that everyone seems to want when they say they want RDM as a DPS.

Why is DNC as a frontline healer an okay option, but RDM is not?

Why is RDM as a frontline caster DPS an okay option, but not BLU is not?

[MagiusNecros]

Better start calling Paladin a Mage Tank too with all those Cures, Stoneskins, and Clemency being thrown around.

Game fast paced? Oh pls

[DWolfwood]

Better start calling Paladin a Mage Tank too with all those Cures, Stoneskins, and Clemency being thrown around.

Game fast paced? Oh pls

For the record, I think PLD should be more about healing than it is. I think the design fell short there. As for casting while tanking? Yeah, it is too fast paced for that currently. In FFXI it worked for PLD/NIN because the autoattacks were ages in between each other while the cast times were the same as they are here. Furthermore, the game doesn't even block interruptions with shield/parry procs.

[Nalien]

For me, it's one that uses magic.

That's fine, just realize when I (and likely others) ask for a mage tank, it isn't what you consider a mage tank. For you, using MP is enough, in which case Dark Knight and Paladin are "mage" tanks, for me the Job actually needs to be using magic as its primary toolset. MP management is a large part of Dark Knight, but for the most part that is down to Dark Arts, and Dark Arts is an enhancement more than anything...

Let me put it this way; A true mage tank would get as much out of Foe's Requiem as Black Mage. Dark Knight gets very little out of Foe's Requiem.

Of course it can be done, but It's more complex than you're suggesting.

It really isn't... Why would you even convert INT into STR? It's a mage tank, it would be used VIT and INT, not VIT and STR... You'd convert some INT into the missing VIT, which would potentially be no different than the damage loss from using Grit/etc. The extra defense is an issue, but that really isn't complex either... It's essentially just something extra tacked onto the Clerics Stance style formula, it's incredibly simple. There is more to it than Clerics Stance, but that doesn't really make it any more complex...

What is so wrong with a RDM healer?

Nothing? Like you said, Red Mage was typically a jack of all trades, and thus I think it could fill any role. Personally I'd like it to be a hybrid melee/mage DPS, Fencing and weaving spells in and out of combos, while sort of like Summoner with regard to White Magic (has a cure and raise for no real reason), but it can be a tank or a healer. Healer is arguably the best option since White Mage is essentially Red Mage already, considering it has heals and nukes, though we lose the fencing aspect certain games made popular.

Why is DNC as a frontline healer an okay option, but RDM is not?

Not what I'm suggesting for Dancer at all... Dancer should be a ranged healer, throwing weapons rather than a carbon copy of XIs version of the Job (although XI gave the Job a throwing weapon for its AF quest, subsequent Relics were all daggers though). Still a backline healer, with Dances having "cast" times, since I know of no dances that are instant, and being the primary form of the Jobs support, can even cost MP for all I care. The Stone/Ruin/Malefic/etc. attack "spells" for Dancer would be TP based attacks based on the Jobs thrown weapon. Slap in a stance that does for DEX and MND what Clerics Stance does for INT and MND, and you can even slap it in appropriate DEX gear, rather than have a Dancer wearing robes...

[Shippuu]

Let me put it this way; A true mage tank would get as much out of Foe's Requiem as Black Mage. Dark Knight gets very little out of Foe's Requiem.

Let me point out a scenario to you that shows exactly the kind of problems that arise when you don't think things through fully. You can theorize about a potential magic casting tank all you want, but when you don't take into consideration all the variables and scenarios, you wind up with very big problems. So here's the spiel:

Say they add a magic casting tank, who gets "as much out of Foe's Requiem as Black Mage." People play the class, then they queue up for say, Void Ark. Now they get in there, and boom, all 3 tanks are this wonderful magical casting tank who's moves do magical damage. Tell me, what happens then when they get to the second boss of Void Ark? You know, that boss where 1 of the two targets becomes immune to all magic damage? Who's supposed to tank that? The tank job that now does literally zero damage to that target?

How about Turn 4 of the Binding Coil of Bahamut, where certain adds reflect all magic damage. Those tanks now have to take extra damage while tanking these mobs over any of the other 3 tanks?

So tell me, what's the solution there? Make them deal some super special type of magic damage that goes through all that? Sure, that'll fix it, but then they aren't dealing magic damage with their magic spells. Now you've just introduced an entirely new damage type that the developers have to spend time coding, implementing, and balancing.

A casting tank is a lofty idea, but it's not one that will ever be realistic to add into this game specifically when you consider all the factors that have to be accounted for in order for such a job to work and still have any kind of balance with the existing 3 tanks.

[Nalien]

So tell me, what's the solution there? Make them deal some super special type of magic damage that goes through all that? Sure, that'll fix it, but then they aren't dealing magic damage with their magic spells. Now you've just introduced an entirely new damage type that the developers have to spend time coding, implementing, and balancing.

With Blue Mage I kinda think they'd need to do that anyway, since you'd essentially be casting things like Chocobo Kick, a physical attack. Blue Magic would have to occupy some form of hybrid magic...

As it is, this whole idea of a BLU/RDM that uses magic is already very similar to what we have. Stick them in armor and what you got is very close to a PLD, who have Clemency, Stoneskin, and could be worked to actually be able to use Raise/Cure since they have it already. Add that and all of a sudden you got 3 frontline tanks that use Magic in some form with swords.

I'd slap Blue Mage with a Mace personally, and the armor is a fairly big point... That's part of the main distinction I'd like from a mage tank. Dark Knight and Paladin wear suits of armor. Blue Mage could wear Casting set robes with a simple Clerics Stance style skill to give it the stats to tank. That makes for a very different "frontline" tank (is there any other kind?) IMO. They could do something similar with Samurai of course, because Samurai sure as hell doesn't suit Fending sets like Darklight, but it would still be a physical tank instead of a magical one.

I think it would be a real shame to just give Blue Mage a sword though... Red Mage kinda has to IMO, but you can specialize that with something like an Epee, which I'd imagine would benefit from piercing rather than slashing? Regardless of their actual roles, I'd be oddly pleased with with the three new Jobs covering the entire spectrum of physical attack types; Blue Mage, blunt. Red Mage, piercing. Samurai, slashing.