SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[Kazrah]

The only thing that I'd think would make Samurai interesting and/or unique as a DPS in this game is if the combos were just peppershot skills (~100 potency) with some debuffs and end with one massive strike (~400+ potency) that would work like fester on steroids. As a tank, well....let's face it, it's not gonna be a tank.

In all honesty though, I don't want to see Samurai in the game. At all. I think it's just an unoriginal, unimaginative Japanese stereotype that only seems to have any level of popularity because god forbid no one let FFXI have the gaming death it rightfully deserves. There are far better ideas (both for melee and tank roles) that can provide far more interesting gameplay without having to go the extra mile just to make a job like Samurai stand out and not make it feel like just another melee.

A better tank option would be something like Viking with a shield and hammer that focuses more on block strength and lightning attacks, especially since Mjolnir as a relic weapon would make it ideal. A caster tank would be feasible too with their "tank stance" adding something extra to compensate for whatever they'd miss on the itemization end. Even a tank based around feature transformation (body parts instead of full form) would be cooler and would certainly stand out, but that probably would require a lot more on the resource end.

As for better melee, beastmaster would be more fun since that could be reciprocal buffing (BST attacks buff pet, pet attacks buff master) and have abilities that can spawn more pets to them despite likely being a nightmare for both development and melee players possibly having needlessly obscured views. Blue mage could work too with beast attacks being picked up like how summoners pick up egis and make it look like the BLU is mimicking the motions of the attack to create the effect. Dancer would probably be more support-side, but would still be more interesting than Samurai.

[MagiusNecros]

A SAM as a Melee Machinist and copying it's Wildfire/Time Bomb doesn't bring anything unique to the table IMO.

[Kazrah]

A SAM as a Melee Machinist and copying it's Wildfire/Time Bomb doesn't bring anything unique to the table IMO.

Less Wildfire and more Fester/Sidewinder but as a mainline rotation and not something cooldown-based. SAM might have dots, but the theme was to have minor attacks whittling away the target before a much larger felling strike.

[DWolfwood]

have you seen any movies or anime, where samurai, is anything else than "DPS"?

I actually started this post by referencing Log Horizon, you should watch it sometime.

not every samurai was heavy armored, most of them was using chain mail

If you could find a single instance of them using chainmail, I'd like to see it. Usually their armor was woven scales, the strongest being iron scales and plates.

Anyhoo.

To the people saying that SAM should be a DPS oriented OT, like WAR, this presents a major problem because WAR is not an OT because it makes a bad MT. It's OT because PLD/DRK make horrible OTs. WAR is actually the strongest MT as well. They need to make all tanks as strong as WAR, not just SAM.

To the people saying SAM as a tank would be boring and have the same niche as DRK, I think you underestimate how many creative ways they could go about making a Tank class. Parrying is not the main mechanic of DRK, Dark Arts and managing MP is. Stacks are the main mechanic of WAR, and PLD is intended to be straight forward. The way they design a class is around how it should play first, and then they design the look of it (i.e. DRK vs SAM) and incorporate it.

To the people saying we need a Mage tank, we have DRK. It revolves around MP management already, so making another tank revolve around that would be just as redundant as another 2-handed weapon tank. Plus, I'm not sure you've thought out the defense aspect when you say that they could just cast spells. Surely you realize how under-powered this would be as time went on. They'd have to either give lighter clothing the same defense as heavy armor or rework defense entirely.

[Kazrah]

To the people saying we need a Mage tank, we have DRK. It revolves around MP management already, so making another tank revolve around that would be just as redundant as another 2-handed weapon tank. Plus, I'm not sure you've thought out the defense aspect when you say that they could just cast spells. Surely you realize how under-powered this would be as time went on. They'd have to either give lighter clothing the same defense as heavy armor or rework defense entirely.

DRK isn't really a mage, rather an emo tin can with a few magic tricks. MP management could be done defensively rather than offensively such as partial MP shielding (some damage reduction and dealt as MP damage) and have far better MP restoring abilities and traits to offset that, or even have a pet that intercepts a portion of damage taken. The "tank stance" buff could do something like increasing physical defense to match magical defense, which casters can caster gear typically have loads of as baseline.

I think you underestimate how many creative ways they could go about making a Tank class.

[DWolfwood]

Your words.

I'm not saying they couldn't do it. I'm saying using the argument that we need a mage tank because we have a 2-handed sword tank already is a pointless argument since we already have a mage tank as well.

Edit - To elaborate, I was referencing the play-style when I mentioned creativity, something they'd already have to build up from scratch, whereas the mage tank reworks the entire defense system already in place. (This confusion happens when you quote people out of context.)

Yes, they could rework everything, and it would also take quite a bit more effort. Whether you think that's worth it or not is one thing. What I'm pointing out is that there is no good argument out there that goes like, "we have too much _____, so we should make ____ a DPS(or Tank.)" These arguments need to just be taken out of discussion. New jobs = more variety, not less.

My suggestion is STILL, make a SAM Tank AND DPS. Shogun Tank, and Ronin DPS.

[Nalien]

To the people saying we need a Mage tank, we have DRK.

Dark Knight is not a mage, it's knight that uses MP.

For me at least, when I ask for something like a mage tank or melee healer, I simply mean a tank or healer that is visibly distinct from current ones. For healers this is terrible, they're all mages. For tanks, Warrior adds some variety at least. Dark Knight may use MP, but it has 0 cast times and is very much a Knight. At best it's a hybrid, but it most certainly isn't a mage tank. Dark Knights main weapon is its sword, not the half dozen or so spells it insta-casts...

Meanwhile, I can't imagine it would be too hard to have an INT based tank like Blue or Red Mage, those would very much be mage style tanks. The only issue comes with gear; Do they wear Fending or Casting? Well, I'd say there is no problem having them tank in Casting sets... It can't be too hard to have the Jobs MT stance function fairly similarly to Clerics Stance... Likewise for a "melee" healer like Dancer, it can share gear with Ninja, but a stance could easily convert DEX into MND for the purpose of healing... It can still sit out at the back, throwing ranged weapons instead of casting Stone/Ruin/Malefic and Dancing to heal party members, instead of casting Cure/etc. That's very much distinct from the current trio of mage healers IMO, and the same thing applies for something like a mage tank. Dark Knight isn't remotely distinct enough from Paladin or Warrior, while a Blue Mage tank very much could be.

[DWolfwood]

Dark Knight is not a mage, it's knight that uses MP.

For me, it's one that uses magic.

Dark Knights main weapon is its sword, not the half dozen or so spells it insta-casts...

DRK's main mechanic is managing MP for Darkside and Dark Arts. The other aspects of its toolkit are really weak in defining it. You can't really say that it's defined by being a melee and then say that WAR is more unique, but more importantly a casting tank would require a method of casting without interruption. This game is simply too fast paced to accommodate a caster tank right now. It's why people raged about Clemency and got the change they did, and also a big reason why it's still not used that much.

Meanwhile, I can't imagine it would be too hard to have an INT based tank like Blue or Red Mage, those would very much be mage style tanks. The only issue comes with gear; Do they wear Fending or Casting? Well, I'd say there is no problem having them tank in Casting sets... It can't be too hard to have the Jobs MT stance function fairly similarly to Clerics Stance...

Using a stance to convert caster gear to tank gear isn't as simple as Cleric. Cleric merely swaps MND with INT, so yes you could swap INT with STR, but where does the extra VIT come from? Do you want the mage tank to have a tiny pool of HP? If you boost their base HP, their HP will quickly be dwarfed by the increase in ilevel. What stat converts into their defense? Even if you do this, it would mean tanking w/o tank stance becomes even worse than what tanks do now since they now have caster defense/HP without it. Of course it can be done, but It's more complex than you're suggesting.

Likewise for a "melee" healer like Dancer, it can share gear with Ninja, but a stance could easily convert DEX into MND for the purpose of healing... It can still sit out at the back, throwing ranged weapons instead of casting Stone/Ruin/Malefic and Dancing to heal party members, instead of casting Cure/etc. That's very much distinct from the current trio of mage healers IMO

What is so wrong with a RDM healer? RDM are known to be jacks of all trades. That means they shouldn't be able to take hits like a warrior or paladin, but should have some means of shielding. They shouldn't have the dps of monk or dragoon, but have decent dps along with a rapier. They shouldn't have the healing of white mage, but should be able to heal a party. To me this clearly points to it being a frontline melee healer. Take all your ideas and place them on RDM and it starts to make sense to me. DNC should be a frontline support job in the future.

Dark Knight isn't remotely distinct enough from Paladin or Warrior, while a Blue Mage tank very much could be.

Blue Mage could be almost anything. I do agree that it could be a tank, but I think it would take a considerable amount of effort in comparison to something like Samurai. The gear/defense problem is not one to take lightly. Samurai can wear all current tank gear without any real questions. Perhaps the only gear that looks odd is the traditional knight looking sets and the Gerolt Masterworks set, but I doubt anyone would really be bothered by this. Blue Mage has less of identity, but I still don't see them wearing the majority of tank sets that are currently out there, whereas it could easily become this frontline caster DPS that everyone seems to want when they say they want RDM as a DPS.

Why is DNC as a frontline healer an okay option, but RDM is not?

Why is RDM as a frontline caster DPS an okay option, but not BLU is not?

[MagiusNecros]

Better start calling Paladin a Mage Tank too with all those Cures, Stoneskins, and Clemency being thrown around.

Game fast paced? Oh pls

[DWolfwood]

Better start calling Paladin a Mage Tank too with all those Cures, Stoneskins, and Clemency being thrown around.

Game fast paced? Oh pls

For the record, I think PLD should be more about healing than it is. I think the design fell short there. As for casting while tanking? Yeah, it is too fast paced for that currently. In FFXI it worked for PLD/NIN because the autoattacks were ages in between each other while the cast times were the same as they are here. Furthermore, the game doesn't even block interruptions with shield/parry procs.