SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[duceTRE]

Make SAM a class, and have the job from said class, be either DPS or TANK. And let the people decide that way. You'll have some be tanks, and some be DPS. I'll just grab some popcorn and watch.

[Shippuu]

A hammer tank can have a very distinct look, too (really, mystic knight or templar would work with a mace/hammer). Not to mention weapon variety would be a good thing in the long run. It's tiring to see every tank job wielding slashing weapons. We should also remember that some people might want to use those slashing weapons to top DPS meters instead of holding aggro.
If you mean the slashing/blunt debuff thing, that's actually one of the things that should go for the sake of trying to even out tank DPS and removing the notion of certain class comps not working well (see: MNK/DRK in a raid comp). Even if you weren't to remove those debuffs, a tank being able to apply a blunt debuff wouldn't exactly break anything. If anything it'd probably be similar to the WAR/NIN synergy we see now.

I think we have a different opinion on what "A very distinct look" is because that is a generic knight of which we have a-plenty. You do realize the irony in saying a SAM would be an overlap and then suggest Mystic Knight and Templar, both of which are Knight archetypes of which we have 2 knight-themed tanks already.
How is a 1 handed hammer any different in animations than the 1 handed sword Paladin's use? How is a 2 Handed hammer any different in animations than the 2 Handed axe Warrior's have? Any argument supporting that hammers could be unique in terms of appearance/animations can also be made for Samurai and their weapons. They are distinctly different than both PLD swords and DRK swords, held differently, moved about differently etc.
You're also acting like DPS have no slashing damage available to them, which is factually untrue i.e. Ninja. In fact, DPS have the most options in terms of types of damage and available styles they can play as, by a lot. (7 DPS options, as opposed to 3 tanks and 3 healers.)


Also, realistically, the type of damage is such a non-issue that it doesn't matter if everything in the game did slashing damage or whatever. People are getting uppity over the "type" of damage a job deals when it honestly doesn't matter in the slightest. There doesn't have to be any semblance of "balance" in terms of what types of damage every job does.

The more tank jobs doesn't necessarily mean the more people tanking. You'll see more people on the job for the first couple of months, then they'll go back to whatever they enjoy doing. Happened with tank knig... Dark knight, will happen with whatever comes next.

More tank jobs doesn't mean more tank players, correct, but it certainly doesn't hurt to try and get more. As opposed to giving tank players nothing and you can guarantee you'll see the number of tank players go down. Tank numbers staying the same is far better than tank numbers going down. And if they're smart they'll continue to add tank roles. Just look at WoW, every class they've added to the game can be a tank.

If they want another tank, they can add something like Barbarian or Warlock. No need to waste Samurai for it.

If they want another dps they can use any of the ton of FF jobs that can fit a DPS role, Dancer, Red Mage, Blue Mage, Ranger, etc. etc. etc. No need to waste Samurai that actually easily fits SE's idea of tanks (Heavy armored defenders) as a dps job.

It doesn't matter the game, but so long as they use the holy trinity of tank/healer/DD, there will always be an abundance of players playing dps and a shortage of players filling the roles of tank/healer. And it always amuses me that some folks solution is "THEY NEED TO ADD MORE TANK/HEALER CLASSES THEN THERE WOULD BE MORE TANK/HEALERS PLAYER" when that has been repeatedly refuted. While there's absolutely nothing wrong with additional tank/healing classes, there will ALWAYS be a shortage of players willing to fill those roles.

So your solution is to never add new exciting thing for tank players so that the shortage of tanks actually goes down as people try the fresh shiny newly added jobs? Tell me how that's any kind of solution to a problem that is a shortage of tanks? It's better to at least try and come up with any number of reasons to entice people to play tanks than it is to just sit there and go "Well this is just how it is and how it always will be."


[QUOTE=EdwinLi;3675481]I think you miss the bigger picture on why Sam should be something else other than a Tank.

As SAM can be easily seen as a Tank due to being one of the classes that can be easily given heavy Tank Armor it is also a bit linear in concept if only classes people can see wearing Heavy Armor can be Tanks.

-Snip-QUOTE]

You're the one missing the bigger picture here, i.e. the developmental picture. While it's stale to have tanks always wear heavy armor, it makes the development work a lot easier. This is why our jobs are very homogenized. They don't have the time nor resources to be making huge experimental archetypes of tanking, creating complex mechanics and entire categories of armor just for them (more sets need to be designed, coded, implemented, not to mention polluting loot tables even more for no reason).

They could do what you ask for but it would cost a lot more dev time and resources, meaning we wouldn't get the loaded content patches every 3 months like we do. You need to step back and look at things from a more realistic approach.

[Tanathya]

More tank jobs doesn't mean more tank players, correct, but it certainly doesn't hurt to try and get more. As opposed to giving tank players nothing and you can guarantee you'll see the number of tank players go down. Tank numbers staying the same is far better than tank numbers going down. And if they're smart they'll continue to add tank roles. Just look at WoW, every class they've added to the game can be a tank.

Nor I said it would hurt, but the idea that the more tank jobs, the better DF-wise has proven to be false. Everyone jumped on DRK when they released it, and almost exactly two months after, queues were the same as they always were. Does this mean they don't have to add more tank jobs? No. However, people need to stop thinking that a vast amount of tank jobs will somehow quicken the queues for everyone else; players will not play the role they don't like.

If they want another dps they can use any of the ton of FF jobs that can fit a DPS role, Dancer, Red Mage, Blue Mage, Ranger, etc. etc. etc. No need to waste Samurai that actually easily fits Yoshida's idea of tanks (Heavy armored defenders) as a dps job.

Fixed it for you.

[Shippuu]

Nor I said it would hurt, but the idea that the more tank jobs, the better DF-wise has proven to be false. Everyone jumped on DRK when they released it, and almost exactly two months after, queues were the same as they always were. Does this mean they don't have to add more tank jobs? No. However, people need to stop thinking that a vast amount of tank jobs will somehow quicken the queues for everyone else; players will not play the role they don't like.

Just because it didn't have long lasting results doesn't mean it's not worth it. Also, just because one attempt didn't work doesn't mean a different attempt won't. 2 months of increased tanks is better than 2 months of decreased tanks, which is what will likely happen if only DPS jobs are added to the game. This hurts a lot especially when it's at the launch of a new expansion where you want to leave players with good impressions on the game so they'll continue to be subscribed.


A lot of players have never tried tanking and thus don't actually know if they'd like it or not. So adding popular requested jobs as tanks is a good way to get them to try and break out from their comfort zone and try something new. Plenty won't like it, but some will, and some may make the change to tanking full time (or more than they usually did).

The point is, it doesn't hurt to add more tank jobs and variety, and it has it has plenty of potential benefits. Whereas neglecting the tanking role and not adding new fresh tank jobs will certainly have a negative effect.

[Duelle]

I think we have a different opinion on what "A very distinct look" is because that is a generic knight of which we have a-plenty.

Not exactly. Armor over heavy robes tends to be a very different deal from your standard plate armor over chainmail, since it's usually for caster-oriented knights (you know, like those INT-based tanks some people have been asking for). You can still use it as a base and tweak it where needed.

You do realize the irony in saying a SAM would be an overlap and then suggest Mystic Knight and Templar, both of which are Knight archetypes of which we have 2 knight-themed tanks already.

My point is that people already got burned with DRK being turned into a tank when some expected it to be DPS. I wouldn't want to see the same done with SAM. Specially not for reasons like "every tank should deal slashing damage".

Not to mention Mystic Knight or Templar could be built around less passive defense and more effects that deal with mitigation. A write-up I did for Mystic Knight actually had them equipping THM/BLM gear for the 1-50 grind with a stance that modifies defense gained from that armor to give it equal EHP to PLD/DRK/WAR, and then going into "of Warding" gear for the post-50 game. Even if you were to not use THM/BLM gear, you could create a variant of medium armor to work off, and have the AF set be armor over a heavy robe while remaining the same stat-wise. If you want a point of reference for the aesthetic, look at warrior priests from the Warhammer mythos; they wear medium armor over a robe.

How is a 1 handed hammer any different in animations than the 1 handed sword Paladin's use?

Different swing angles and force applied. On maces, the fact you can use both "faces" of the weapon to strike. The fact that you can make some of the weapon skills magic related (remember that half of the club weapon skills in FFXI were non-physical effects).

How is a 2 Handed hammer any different in animations than the 2 Handed axe Warrior's have?

Read the above. With maces and two-headed hammers you don't have to worry about the striking side of a weapon the way you do with an axe. Use and purpose are also very different. And again, you could make the weapon skills act as spell effects.

Any argument supporting that hammers could be unique in terms of appearance/animations can also be made for Samurai and their weapons. They are distinctly different than both PLD swords and DRK swords, held differently, moved about differently etc.

Indeed. I'm not sure why you think I'd argue otherwise.

You're also acting like DPS have no slashing damage available to them, which is factually untrue i.e. Ninja.

Except knives don't do anything for me.

In fact, DPS have the most options in terms of types of damage and available styles they can play as, by a lot. (7 DPS options, as opposed to 3 tanks and 3 healers.)

Neither do lances or fists. Nevermind the design issues I have with MCH and BRD nor the fact I generally don't main casters.

Also, realistically, the type of damage is such a non-issue that it doesn't matter if everything in the game did slashing damage or whatever. People are getting uppity over the "type" of damage a job deals when it honestly doesn't matter in the slightest. There doesn't have to be any semblance of "balance" in terms of what types of damage every job does.

And yet people use the damage type and the debuffs attached as part of a class' utility. That's largely why I have a problem with it.

[silentwindfr]

not every samurai was heavy armored, most of them was using chain mail, that wasn't really heavy armored armor like the paladin and such.
plus, what will bring as gameplay the samurai to the tanking? nothing news... it will still be a physical tank with a 2 hand weapon mostly relying on the parry... what we have already with the drk and war.

plus a tank is not forced to have a heavy armor, they can perfectly create a tank purely magic that will use different spell as defense...

believe me, even if they add sam as tank, the DF situation will not change! because people simply don't like to play tank that was always like this and will never change whatever you try!

ps: and anyway, it's useless to talk about this, the director of the game (yoshida) have said that for him sam is a dps... we can argue he is still the one deciding not us.

[KuroganeAre]

DPS OR RIOT!!!

[FabricioRF]

SAM is going to be a Healer.

/thread

[Jhett_Magnum]

What stops a WAR from MT?

What I mean is the fact that introducing 2 powerful OTs might put PLD and DRK behind.

Emphasis on might.

The ultimate goal is to make all tanks viable to raid with one another without hindering other jobs. At least that's what i would want to see.

[ADVSS]

Cyan from FF6.,,,The Samurai Eorzea needs, not the Samurai it deserves. Quadra slice anyone?