SAMURAI SHOWDOWN

[Nalien]

For me, it's one that uses magic.

That's fine, just realize when I (and likely others) ask for a mage tank, it isn't what you consider a mage tank. For you, using MP is enough, in which case Dark Knight and Paladin are "mage" tanks, for me the Job actually needs to be using magic as its primary toolset. MP management is a large part of Dark Knight, but for the most part that is down to Dark Arts, and Dark Arts is an enhancement more than anything...

Let me put it this way; A true mage tank would get as much out of Foe's Requiem as Black Mage. Dark Knight gets very little out of Foe's Requiem.

Of course it can be done, but It's more complex than you're suggesting.

It really isn't... Why would you even convert INT into STR? It's a mage tank, it would be used VIT and INT, not VIT and STR... You'd convert some INT into the missing VIT, which would potentially be no different than the damage loss from using Grit/etc. The extra defense is an issue, but that really isn't complex either... It's essentially just something extra tacked onto the Clerics Stance style formula, it's incredibly simple. There is more to it than Clerics Stance, but that doesn't really make it any more complex...

What is so wrong with a RDM healer?

Nothing? Like you said, Red Mage was typically a jack of all trades, and thus I think it could fill any role. Personally I'd like it to be a hybrid melee/mage DPS, Fencing and weaving spells in and out of combos, while sort of like Summoner with regard to White Magic (has a cure and raise for no real reason), but it can be a tank or a healer. Healer is arguably the best option since White Mage is essentially Red Mage already, considering it has heals and nukes, though we lose the fencing aspect certain games made popular.

Why is DNC as a frontline healer an okay option, but RDM is not?

Not what I'm suggesting for Dancer at all... Dancer should be a ranged healer, throwing weapons rather than a carbon copy of XIs version of the Job (although XI gave the Job a throwing weapon for its AF quest, subsequent Relics were all daggers though). Still a backline healer, with Dances having "cast" times, since I know of no dances that are instant, and being the primary form of the Jobs support, can even cost MP for all I care. The Stone/Ruin/Malefic/etc. attack "spells" for Dancer would be TP based attacks based on the Jobs thrown weapon. Slap in a stance that does for DEX and MND what Clerics Stance does for INT and MND, and you can even slap it in appropriate DEX gear, rather than have a Dancer wearing robes...

[Shippuu]

Let me put it this way; A true mage tank would get as much out of Foe's Requiem as Black Mage. Dark Knight gets very little out of Foe's Requiem.

Let me point out a scenario to you that shows exactly the kind of problems that arise when you don't think things through fully. You can theorize about a potential magic casting tank all you want, but when you don't take into consideration all the variables and scenarios, you wind up with very big problems. So here's the spiel:

Say they add a magic casting tank, who gets "as much out of Foe's Requiem as Black Mage." People play the class, then they queue up for say, Void Ark. Now they get in there, and boom, all 3 tanks are this wonderful magical casting tank who's moves do magical damage. Tell me, what happens then when they get to the second boss of Void Ark? You know, that boss where 1 of the two targets becomes immune to all magic damage? Who's supposed to tank that? The tank job that now does literally zero damage to that target?

How about Turn 4 of the Binding Coil of Bahamut, where certain adds reflect all magic damage. Those tanks now have to take extra damage while tanking these mobs over any of the other 3 tanks?

So tell me, what's the solution there? Make them deal some super special type of magic damage that goes through all that? Sure, that'll fix it, but then they aren't dealing magic damage with their magic spells. Now you've just introduced an entirely new damage type that the developers have to spend time coding, implementing, and balancing.

A casting tank is a lofty idea, but it's not one that will ever be realistic to add into this game specifically when you consider all the factors that have to be accounted for in order for such a job to work and still have any kind of balance with the existing 3 tanks.

[Khalithar]

To the people saying we need a Mage tankPlus, I'm not sure you've thought out the defense aspect when you say that they could just cast spells. Surely you realize how under-powered this would be as time went on. They'd have to either give lighter clothing the same defense as heavy armor or rework defense entirely.

This is completely untrue, in other games with mage tanks they give them a unique buff that functions like the tank stances in this game. I posted it earlier but I'll repost it for your benefit. In Rift the mage wears the same gear as every other mage but it is a tank, it tanks by having a buff called Arcane Ward that it can keep up at all times, here's what it does, "enables Block. Causes Block to derive from the Mage's Intelligence. Increases Base Health by 25%, Resistances by 35%, and Armor by 150%. Increases threat generation by 300%. Reduces damage and healing done by 20%. " They could very easily add a buff like this and make it work and honestly I think if Trion could make the mage tank work, so could Yoshi's team.

Saying it would be underpowered is simply not true.

[DWolfwood]

Saying it would be underpowered is simply not true.

That's not even what I was talking about if you read what I was saying. That said, you're taking an entirely different game and tacking it onto FFXIV. I never said it couldn't be done, on the contrary, I know it can be done, but it's more effort than you think. I'm not saying that they can't do it either but they need to make changes. Of course it can be done, but it could also be done in smarter, easier ways. Like giving DRK more offensive magic, and giving PLD more healing/defensive.

As it is, this whole idea of a BLU/RDM that uses magic is already very similar to what we have. Stick them in armor and what you got is very close to a PLD, who have Clemency, Stoneskin, and could be worked to actually be able to use Raise/Cure since they have it already. Add that and all of a sudden you got 3 frontline tanks that use Magic in some form with swords. It's just a bit silly considering the people asking for this are usually the ones complaining there's too many sword tank classes. That's why this subject is even in a SAM thread, because they can't seem to seperate these arguments, and accept that there's no Eastern Tank class, yet there's already 2 Eastern Melee, and one already uses Katanas, which is what Samurai traditionally use.

[MagiusNecros]

Building on that you could also say they could have been more creative about DRK instead of tacking on Parry and being a mishmash inbetween of PLD and WAR. Yet. They weren't. The only reason why WAR can go OT or MT and do good in both is the fact they can mitigate all forms of damage and don't have to have content specifically designed to favor one class over the other and even then since WAR is the go to OT in the game they will always have a spot on party composition.

The question I ask you is either as a Tank or DPS what can a Samurai offer to the table that is unique and fresh and not a slight alteration of other abilities in the game possessed by other classes?

Edit: And they already said the Arcanist SMN/SCH thing would not be repeated. if you opt for the option of SAM to Tank and DPS the only real answer you have is to make it fill the OT spot. And besides if you want to separate SAM into two classes then I assure you the Dark Knights gonna raise hell.

[Kazrah]

The question I ask you is either as a Tank or DPS what can a Samurai offer to the table that is unique and fresh and not a slight alteration of other abilities in the game possessed by other classes?

This is the grand hurdle. This is really the biggest obstacle standing in the way of Samurai. For DPS, it's looking at and think of how it would be more than just a Monk or a Dragoon or a Ninja with a fresh coat of paint. For a tank, it would need its own style of damage mitigation, not just some greater emphasis on parry or dodge.

I'd still say no to Samurai, but at least it's nice knowing that the right question is being asked.

[DWolfwood]

The question I ask you is either as a Tank or DPS what can a Samurai offer to the table that is unique and fresh and not a slight alteration of other abilities in the game possessed by other classes?

Like I said, to answer that, we need to first come up with something new to add to tanking/dps in general. It's a very good question, and one that if you give me time, I could definitely come up with something. I'm sure the development team has been working on this.

Thinking about a SAM tank, how would it play? Surely there'd be countering and parrying involved, so this brings us to the interesting idea about countering. Then we ask, "is there a tank that already uses countering as a big part of their toolkit?"

Then we look at the tanks, and we find Vengeance, with Blood Price to a lesser extent since it doesn't really reflect damage. Then we ask, "is Vengeance a defining ability of WAR?" while also asking, "can we make a tank toolkit based around countering?"

Then you start coming up with ideas:

Ultimate Tank move: Counters all attacks for X seconds. (Similar in strength to PLD's ability, so should be a shorter duration given the benefit of damage.)
Sheltron-like Counter ability: Probably too strong, so one would have to come back, but the idea is there.
Building stacks with successful parries: Would be less reliable than WAR's stacks, so would need to make it worth it. While perhaps also making it not as relied upon as WAR's stacks.
Sheltron-like Parry ability to help build stacks: An alternate perhaps to the counter, but we should lay out all ideas in the beginning.

If you run into a wall here, you look at what other things could define SAM. Kiai has already been mentioned, so how could this be used in tanking? Well, one thing that is lacking in tanks right now is an AoE taunt. It's also a problem that every tank seems to have to use GLA as a cross-class to obtain it. These problems combined could be solved with an AoE taunt as part of SAM's toolkit, called "something Kiai" or whatever.

Stances are probably more linked with SAM than any other job's real life inspiration than anything, so I think we can safely say that they'd have the easiest time coming up with stances.

A DPS would likely follow a similar line of creation, with the main difference being that counter abilities would be of lesser importance than other stuff, like Kiai. I can tell you that of all jobs, SAM would have potentially the easiest time of having an abundance of names for abilities and stances to accommodate both a Tank and DPS, than any other job currently, so again, I think it would work well.

Does any of this make SAM a completely unique job than what we got? No.

Does it make for a unique play experience? Yes.

At the end of the day, making any job completely unique is going to be difficult because you run into many more obstacles, when all you really need to aim for is to make it feel like it plays uniquely.

[DWolfwood]

if you want to separate SAM into two classes then I assure you the Dark Knights gonna raise hell.

I think that would be good for them to raise hell. When these jobs finally do come out in 4.0, the development team would love feedback on what jobs to make next. A "Gloom Knight" or some kind of knight that is a DPS and perhaps even uses Scythes would be a great addition.

Personally, as a DRK main, I would love for them to just start adding multiple weapon types and just suck it up and make new animation sets for all the jobs.

For example:

WAR: Now wields Great Axes and Great Hammers
PLD: Now wields Swords and Maces/Hammers
DRK: Now wields Great Swords and Scythes

The rest of the jobs would take more work and effort of course considering the optional weapons for NIN might be: Kusarigama, 2h Katana (maybe this would make players happy if SAM was solely a tank?)

MNK might use staves, which might make certain punch abilities have odd naming. BRD would use ????. MCH could use a different type of gun. DRG should probably stay as solely spear uses, so I guess you wouldn't have to force multiple weapons on every job.

I'd like to see this, but of course, I would be perfectly fine with the community wanting a new type of "Dark Knight" alternate.

[AlphaFox]

I am sure they could find a way to make a caster work as a Tank. Say let the initial hate spells be quick or instant casts but let the basic rotations be normal cast and a mix of Single target or AoE. The stats are the only part where the idea falls apart for me.

[DWolfwood]

I am sure they could find a way to make a caster work as a Tank. Say let the initial hate spells be quick or instant casts but let the basic rotations be normal cast and a mix of Single target or AoE. The stats are the only part where the idea falls apart for me.

I think they should start by making parry and shield procs prevent spell interruption. This also opens the door for a more traditional PLD in my opinion, where healing is a major part of their toolkit.

Something I think people are ignoring is that the future should bring more to each of our jobs, and I think if they want to bring offensive magic casting into the mix, they should first look at DRK. They could give us a single target Drain Spell for instance, or a number of other offensive spells. Yes, it wouldn't be a completely offensive-spell based tank, but I think it still helps give the current tanks more unique flavor.