3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

[Lorielle]

Feel like that buff to Aetherflow was really unnecessary. Somewhat equivalent to Somersault getting buff. Don't know who said something about hard counters, but you seriously do not know what a hard counter is. None of that exists in this game. With the amount of healing buffs and things that go up on people, I see One Llm Punch stealing away Focalize, Protect, Whispering Dawn, Medica, Aspected Benefict, and other effects more often than I do Aetherflow. Even if that manages to get through, these people are not without options to get them back.

[Nidelia]

Feel like that buff to Aetherflow was really unnecessary.

To all people who think that, I just raise that:
Removing stacks on sch and smn are breaking their gameplay. It put sch in an extermly bad position. And it makes litterally smn as usefull as an acn since all HW skills are based on stacks minus Tri-Desaster. And you think it is fair?

Then I suggest that:
Now OIP remove: Wrath and Abandon stacks/Sword and Shield Oath/Grased Lightning stacks, posture and fist buff/Blood of the Dragon/Bard's songs, Wanderer's Minuet/have 100% accuracy on Attenuement/Ninja's poison, decast Ninjutsu/Darkside, Grit/Diurnal and Nocturnal sect/Ammunitions. In short, deny everything
Some of them may be possible to debuff now (read that about ammos) and I find that unfaire for every single skill on this list.

Plus do I need to refresh that they nerfed Aetherflow because of secure? Gameplay isn't the same now and the reason why they did that is now irrelavent.

[RiceisNice]

To all people who think that, I just raise that:
Removing stacks on sch and smn are breaking their gameplay. It put sch in an extermly bad position. And it makes litterally smn as usefull as an acn since all HW skills are based on stacks minus Tri-Desaster. And you think it is fair?

In relation to how restricted it previously was (every second hit of a monk combo and somersault before changes), it's more fair than it was previously. SMN isn't contingent on cast times as BLM (or even MCH/BRD for that matter) to get their damage out, and very little set up to their burst. On top of that, as far as burst is considered, you'd probably wouldn't hold onto your aetherflow for longer than 4 seconds.

SCH on the other hand, has way too much of their healing potential on their aetherflow, and they should have a bit stronger options out of it (espesically since they don't nessescarly excel at anything compared to WHM/AST, or bring anything to the table aside from a stronger damage shield)

Then I suggest that:
Now OIP remove: Wrath and Abandon stacks/Sword and Shield Oath/Grased Lightning stacks, posture and fist buff/Blood of the Dragon/Bard's songs, Wanderer's Minuet/have 100% accuracy on Attenuement/Ninja's poison, decast Ninjutsu/Darkside, Grit/Diurnal and Nocturnal sect/Ammunitions. In short, deny everything
Some of them may be possible to debuff now (read that about ammos) and I find that unfaire for every single skill on this list.

The problem with this comparison is that the mechanics behind some of them are not related to burst, but build-up (GL and wrath/abandon) or stances. Things such as aetherflow and ammunition are on-demand buff used for specific setups. Between affecting both skills fairly, or making them both immune and destroying the utility of OIP, only one of those two changes renders a pvp-oriented skill useless in pvp. On top of that it'd be absurdly broken to be able to remove things that have a consistent presence (specifically the stances), all things in consideration. In a PvP setting, you're never really going to always have aetherflow active (same way as you wouldn't always have raging strikes active) or ammo for that matter, not as a SMN as far as burst is considered anyway, not so much on SCH but I already touched on that.

aetherflow is 1min cd, they didn't get shut down at all.

the people that complained about monk are the smn/schs that popped aetherflow and waited until they needed it instead of keeping aetherflow off cd and using it as burst instead. you CANNOT play the same with monk in the other party, you NEED to change your strat. this is what monk was all about but not anymore.

. It takes 2 GCD to reach for the first then 3 GCD every time after that(if you'r trying to maintain GL3 like you should).

Somersault is on a 40 second cooldown when traited. As far as cooldowns are concerned, a monk can answer to every aetherflow usage if they're quick enough, not to mention that losing a single stack is the loss of DWT and dreadflare. (though really, it's also comparable to a MCH losing cleaner shot procs or reassemble, but this is more on point to why they need to keep the removals consistent) This is also more of a detriment to scholar than it is to summoner because having access to only 3 aetherflow usages compared to a possible 6 is a huge hit to their healing potential. At the very least, somersault doesn't need that lowered cooldown.

[xxczx]

Somersault is on a 40 second cooldown when traited. As far as cooldowns are concerned, a monk can answer to every aetherflow usage if they're quick enough. This is also more of a detriment to scholar than it is to summoner because having access to only 3 aetherflow usages compared to a possible 6 is a huge hit to their healing potential. At the very least, somersault doesn't need that lowered cooldown.

And I agree, Somersault has too low of a cd. If they want to make it that low of a CD, they should lower GL timer

this gives monks either two options, use spam oip punch and loose GL or keep GL up while using oip once/twice

[RiceisNice]

And I agree, Somersault has too low of a cd. If they want to make it that low of a CD, they should lower GL timer

MNKs have the most detriment when they lose uptime, along with the longest start up time (cooldowns withholding) I think that's what they wanted to avoid. The problem with this (and I mentioned it before) is that it feels really short sighted if that's what they wanted to address that specifically; Instead of just making it easier to rebuild GL stacks through a lowered somersault cooldown, it's also giving them free access to OIP spam all that more often which hugely detriments SMN and MCH (and again, these jobs compared to their peers, BRD/BLM, have arguably stronger/reliable burst, espesically since SMN has very few counterplays to it aside from OIP). If aetherflow isn't affected, then it leaves the question to why MCH ammo/shot procs are still affected (on top of them already having lowered potency, so I can't really say they'd burst better than BRD either).

And as much as the SMNs want to cry foul on aetherflow being removed, I think SCH has more ground to stand on with the current state of their kit. At least n the former, SMN has control on when they use aetherflow to perform their job effectively (leaving up the guesswork to MNK in reaction time). SCH has no luxury since they need aetherflow to active to have a healing presence (otherwise, it's a poor man's burst healing if they popped aetherflow as they needed, something that a WHM can do much more effectively on top of their other tools).

this gives monks either two options, use spam oip punch and loose GL or keep GL up while using oip once/twice

It'd have to be a really tight window to be honest. GL is currently like 12 seconds now? Somersault gives peanut butter for a whooping 6 seconds which is probably around 3 GCDs at max stack. Though wasn't GL also formerly around 10 seconds, you'd need around 5-6 seconds of GCDs to be able to hit your third combo starting from scratch (and IIRC, peanut butter leaves you stanceless after-the-fact)


On a side note, I'm also confused to their approach with removing the healing debuff. If they're afraid it was giving ninja and warrior too much of an edge over their peers, I have to point out, what can a ninja do over monk and dragoon, all things considered? (aside from stealthing with heavy medal, that shite needs to stop) It's less applicable healer pressure and it's no longer a a game factor that healers need to consider now.

[xxczx]

It'd have to be a really tight window to be honest. GL is currently like 12 seconds now? Somersault gives peanut butter for a whooping 6 seconds which is probably around 3 GCDs at max stack. Though wasn't GL also formerly around 10 seconds, you'd need around 5-6 seconds of GCDs to be able to hit your third combo starting from scratch (and IIRC, peanut butter leaves you stanceless after-the-fact)

GL is 24s in PvP off the top of my head but 14s in PvE. I'm trying to think of what Monk really gives to the team now in PvP and all I can think of is Dragon Kick (which is useless because 9/10 teams roll MCH/BRD), Somersault for healers, Axe Kick to time WAR/melee burst. Nothing really else after this... Their damage is not like NINs/DRGs. We need cooldown time to get our burst back up (Chakra) and if you really want to go full out burst, we need Somersault/Axe kick for ourselves so we can use Tornado Kick.

[RiceisNice]

GL is 24s in PvP off the top of my head but 14s in PvE. I'm trying to think of what Monk really gives to the team now in PvP and all I can think of is Dragon Kick (which is useless because 9/10 teams roll MCH/BRD), Somersault for healers, Axe Kick to time WAR/melee burst. Nothing really else after this... Their damage is not like NINs/DRGs. We need cooldown time to get our burst back up (Chakra) and if you really want to go full out burst, we need Somersault/Axe kick for ourselves so we can use Tornado Kick.

28 seconds actually, with a damage bonus of 30%. I just took another look at notes, which is pretty damn absurd in consideration with everything else. Honestly speaking, the damage output of a monk is contingent on maintaining GL3, not attaining it, if that makes sense.

I also wouldn't say ninja does more than monk on a typical scenario, considering higher damage buffs (GL3 + twin snacks, and FoF if we're gonna go that further). The cooldown burst also applies to nin and drg as well (or really, any dps that isnt blm). Axe kick also pacifies in an AoE (and is the only pacification that has on-demand access), it's something to consider, MNK's pvp skills are much more effective at shutting down the opposing team on different levelsl DRG only has int reduction on caster dps (and running with your example most teams roll MCH/BRD), and nin having silence, which doesnt prevent ability heals, so long-duration silence isn't as effective as we'd like to think. They also have a bit more self-preservation than ninja does through FoE (10% mitigation, not to scoff at) and third wind /w traited internal release

[Mirili]

I'm trying to think of what Monk really gives to the team now in PvP

It's not like they've taken away OIP. They're making ONE buff an exception to dispel. You can still strip damned near everything else. >_>

[Petite]

I'm trying to think of what Monk really gives to the team now in PvP and all I can think of is Dragon Kick (which is useless because 9/10 teams roll MCH/BRD), Somersault for healers, Axe Kick to time WAR/melee burst. Nothing really else after this... Their damage is not like NINs/DRGs. We need cooldown time to get our burst back up (Chakra) and if you really want to go full out burst, we need Somersault/Axe kick for ourselves so we can use Tornado Kick.

Trade ya Skewer for Somersault ok?

Also maybe MNK does slightly less than NIN/DRG because they have a positional to all of their weaponskills, but sustained damage is less important than burst. You have 8 OGCDs you can pop as soon as your target reaches 50%, letting you launch an attack almost every second when in GL3. MNKs got great buffs last patch and still you want a pity party? Because you can't shutdown 2 jobs anymore?

[PotatoTree]

Feel like that buff to Aetherflow was really unnecessary. Somewhat equivalent to Somersault getting buff. Don't know who said something about hard counters, but you seriously do not know what a hard counter is. None of that exists in this game. With the amount of healing buffs and things that go up on people, I see One Llm Punch stealing away Focalize, Protect, Whispering Dawn, Medica, Aspected Benefict, and other effects more often than I do Aetherflow. Even if that manages to get through, these people are not without options to get them back.

MNK definitely hard countered SMN.