Don't be "that DPS"

[Malicewolf]

But... If you're doing end game the tanks should have no issue holding hate from you... If they do, they're bad sorry. Unless the dps attacks before the tank does that is, which isn't a dps thing, but a personal thing.

I don't totally agree with this. I do think myself a fairly good tank. With ilvl180 gear, I was able to keep hate from ilvl 205+ players, but they would always be on the cusp of taking back from me, especially if they had their rotations down pat. My flashes weren't enough to spread enough enmity in comparison to how fast they were hitting their combos. Gear differences can make it very hard to hold. If I had messed up my rotation even a bit, I definitely would of lost aggro on a few things. And honestly, may have it weren't for the fact that the high geared DPS were on point in burning the mobs quick enough.

Biggest issues I see if tanks not using their AoE to gain an enmity hold on mobs or simply not knowing priority in their enmity combos. I do tend to see MANY warriors who focus more on their DPS than their enmity and that can cause issues.

This is not true. As a BLM I will do far lower DPS and have more missed spells if I target the same target as everyone else. A few lucky crits by the tank and a melee may kill the mob from more than half health during the time it takes me to cast Fire4.
I specifically try and pick a mob the other DPS are not targeting to keep my DPS up. I do occasionally rip a mob away from the Tank, but I can handle it by myself. Just manaward/manawall and nuke it dead while the Tank can blissfully stay doing exactly what he was doing before.

The only problems I have are slow tanks taking each mob group one at a time (4 pulls from honeycomb to honeycomb I'm looking at your Arboretum).

To that arboretum part, that's purely dependent on the teams capability, not just yours. A single mess up from a healer or tank could mean the party wipes. Those wasps do final stings and usually, right in succession. They deal out enormous amounts of damage, to the point where it simply seems like an insta kill half the time. If you don't burn the honeycomb within seconds of the tank going down, you wipe. I hardly call being cautious there to avoid the wipe (which takes more time) as bad. However, a decent tank should be able to tell whether or not their party is up for the task by the time you reach the honeycombs.

[FunkyBunch]

To that arboretum part, that's purely dependent on the teams capability, not just yours. A single mess up from a healer or tank could mean the party wipes. Those wasps do final stings and usually, right in succession. They deal out enormous amounts of damage, to the point where it simply seems like an insta kill half the time. If you don't burn the honeycomb within seconds of the tank going down, you wipe. I hardly call being cautious there to avoid the wipe (which takes more time) as bad. However, a decent tank should be able to tell whether or not their party is up for the task by the time you reach the honeycombs.

I'm not talking about the honeycomb blast through method. I was talking about the individual wasps in between the honeycomb.
Even doing it as designed, you still run from the top honeycomb to the bottom honeycomb.
The only times I've ever seen anyone fail there is with the honeycomb only run, and even then very rarely.

[Alistaire]

As a tank who's not terrible, please do be that DPS. You don't need to hold back, holding hate in this game is so laughably easy I don't even understand how you could start a thread like this.

[firstsin]

Erm... if you are having trouble to hold aggro against a dps then you'll hate a whm who's initial burst is one of the highest.

Best piece of advice GIT GUD,

[Februs]

idk, I have had all 3 tanks be able to hold hate without me getting past yellow on my i207 smn when they are barely breaking the i190 mark

I did say that all tanks, including Pld, should not have a problem if they know how to use their kit properly.

Regardless, that does not change the fact that Pld's do have the lowest enmity multiplier. It's a tested fact. For this reason, Pld's have to make concessions to compensate when they are out-geared by the Dps. For example, they may have to spam Flash a few more times than normal. They may have to reduce their Goring Blade DoT application or Royal Authority potency in favour of strictly using RoH. Doing this is not really an issue of skill, because it doesn't take a lot of skill to cycle one combo and rotate Flash in-between. They'll hold hate just fine, but a Pld is not optimizing their role when they are forced to play like that.

That said, knowing when and where to prioritize a stronger focus on enmity is definitely a matter of skill and experience. Given how inefficient Pld threat generation is, all Pld's have to be constantly aware of their current enmity and make adjustments as necessary. Enmity constantly looms over that job.

[Februs]

This is not true. As a BLM I will do far lower DPS and have more missed spells if I target the same target as everyone else.

AoE Dps and DoT applications are an exception, and those exceptions do not really matter much for enmity, assuming you are swapping targets strategically.

You said that you have to swap around 50% of the mob's Hp. By that time the Tank should have at least used more than one AoE threat generating move or flat out rotated an enmity strike to the target you are swapping to. Crisis averted. The only problems are when Dps start their rotations on separate targets, or if the target you are swapping to is one that the Tank has not yet landed a hit on. Swapping targets is fine, but you should be conscious of how much hate the tank has on the target you are planning to attack. Carelessly going after the target that has the least threat gen from the tank is irresponsible, especially when there are other mobs with higher enmity in the group that you could have switched to.

You're also confusing personal Dps for party Dps. You're right that keeping your cast alive is the correct decision for maintaining your personal Dps. However, if you are grabbing peripheral hate from the tank by attacking targets that the Tank has yet to establish enmity on, then you are forcing the tank to split their dps (yes, tanks do deal damage). Further, the combined Dps potency of multiple players is higher than any one player can generate on their own, especially if you account for buffs. For example, a Drg's piercing buff from Impulse Drive does absolutely nothing for a Brd if they are attacking a totally different target from the Drg.

Now, if you are simply switching targets strategically to maintain your combo, then that's totally fine. It means you are being conscious of your environment and optimizing your role. However, 2 Dps who start Dps'ing on 2 different targets at the start of a pull are not optimizing the party dps or overall time. They might be optimizing their personal dps, but that doesn't mean they're going any faster.

The only problems I have are slow tanks taking each mob group one at a time (4 pulls from honeycomb to honeycomb I'm looking at your Arboretum).

This is often a Dps issue as well.

When I tank Arboretum, I am all for pulling the whole hallway and skipping the adds, but not all Dps are good enough to make that pull. These days, almost every Dps team I run into thinks they're amazing, but the sad fact is that most of them cannot burn the adds fast enough to avoid Final Stings. Tanks can hold those stings off by using their ultimate defense (Hallowed Ground, Walking Dead, Holmgang), but that defense lasts a maximum of 10 seconds (much less if you are War, and a Drk's Walking Dead can be instantly canceled if the healer doesn't notice it and heals them to full). If the Dps are slow, then there is no point to trying to make a full run.

[firstsin]

These days, almost every Dps team I run into thinks they're amazing

I agree with you on this. Saying that the only scenario where tanks can have aggro issue is pre-50 duties.

Beyond that tanks have more than enough skills to generate snap aggro. your comment about DPS not being effective in a party can be turned around and argued against a tank who fails to not understand how to engage a group of mobs and how to hold aggro.

I have seen many scenarios where the DPS have held back, the tank blew through all of his CDs, the mobs are still alive and the healer is OOM

A tank that cannot hold aggro is not the responsibility of the DPS, it is just as likely the healer will sooner or later rip aggro simply by healing as well.

[RiisWolf]

I tend to pop cd after the pull starts and I still out threat the tank.

If DRG then it was normally because the tank is excessively switching targets to hit individually instead of using flash/OP/AoEs. This ends with me tanking the tanks original target or #1 target. And no I don't start with dragonfire dive.
If SMN, then it switching targets does not matter, we always AoE.
If BRD. . .. .any combo of the first two and that is it.
If BLM. . . . ^
If MNK. . . .. . . .^

You all have the space to shield lob then flash assuming you used lob from a distance. Circle of Scorn being a oGCD will help a ton as you can use it between lob and flash.
And I hate to sound mean but I and many others will NOT throttle back for the things you simply can AND refuse to do. And sorry if there is nothing you can do (if it is clear you are underpowered).

[Artemiz]

I and many others will NOT throttle back for the things you simply can AND refuse to do.

Well YOU could always cycle the mobs if you start getting too much hate, but I guess you only apply this logic to others but not yourself. The tank must be perfect and manage hate on multiple mobs but you can tunnel vision on one mob and desregard everything else. Alternatively, you could just work with your party instead of against it and be a good DPS.

Hate is a group effort, anyone who has a clue about how to work as a team will already know this and I don't care how bad ass you think you are if you're constantly pulling hate and making your healer and tanks life more difficult then you're a bad DPS. Sure the tank might be bad too but that's no excuse.

If I pull hate straight after shield lob with a thundercloud or firestarter proc and screw the pull up then that's my fault, not the tanks. If I start pulling hate with sustained damage then I have to throttle back or change target because a little less damage is better than hate being a mess and one DPS laying KO on the floor.

Sure, some tanks are awful and can't really do the job properly, but if we're talking about a competent tank that does flash and that does use the right rotation then it's up the the DPS to work with what they've got, not cause chaos and blame the tank.

[RiisWolf]

Alternatively, you could just work with your party instead of against it and be a good DPS.

What part of " . ..for the things you simply can AND refuse to do." do you not understand?