Don't be "that DPS"

[Kabooa]

The part where you make out you take hate all the time on different jobs and blame the tank for it. It's your responsibility too yet you refuse to throttle back, you even apologise if the tank is undergeared meaning you do it to new tanks too. That's a bad DPS. For further information, read my previous post again

Honestly, as a BLM main I could tank as much as I wanted and the tank wouldn't be able to do much about it, especially DF tanks. It's not about me being a bad ass, it's about working together and showing each other a little respect.

No competent tank should lose threat to a responsible black mage.

Being a responsible black mage doesn't mean throttling yourself because everything's orange. It means you you give a few seconds of leeway before going balls to the wall. The only tank that might have an issue with this is the Paladin. Dark Knights and Warriors have no excuse, assuming gear is equal.

[nitaZ28]

Hate is a group effort, anyone who has a clue about how to work as a team will already know this and I don't care how bad ass you think you are if you're constantly pulling hate and making your healer and tanks life more difficult then you're a bad DPS. Sure the tank might be bad too but that's no excuse.

Wow, this one gets it.

Good answer to the "it's the tank's job to clean up after me" attitude of yet another lazy, irresponsible DPS.

I actually think these clowns should spend some time playing a tank. Certainly I wouldn't expect them to learn much. That requires responsibility, and insight, which they lack. That's why they are DPS in the first place. But at the minimum they could transfer some of the (granted, small amount due to their limitations) gained knowledge of what it's like being a tank---> over to their job as DPS.

[ShanaShirayuki]

Hate is a group effort, anyone who has a clue about how to work as a team will already know this and I don't care how bad ass you think you are if you're constantly pulling hate and making your healer and tanks life more difficult then you're a bad DPS. Sure the tank might be bad too but that's no excuse.

If the tank is bad then that's his/her fault for not researching their role/class properly, potentially forcing the 3/7 others to carry him/her. So I don't know where you get off thinking it's a DPS issue. Multidotting is key to being a good DPS, and should not be limited by a bad tank, no excuses (Shadewalker can be used in such situations).

I actually think these clowns should spend some time playing a tank. Certainly I wouldn't expect them to learn much. That requires responsibility, and insight, which they lack. That's why they are DPS in the first place. But at the minimum they could transfer some of the (granted, small amount due to their limitations) gained knowledge of what it's like being a tank---> over to their job as DPS.

Ignorant, sweeping generalizations... further countered by this (though a couple exceptions do exist):

DPS has to deal with timers, delays in their own moves, random procs, positionals, every new wrench to their long list of chores to deal high amounts of damage, more mechanics than a Tank will EVER be responsible for, being randomly targeted by bosses most of the time, and having to depend on the tank to do their job. But no, let's just pretend DPS is so lazy and free of responsibilities.

Funny how Nita and Artemiz preach it's a groupwide effort but only find faults in those playing DPS.

[Artemiz]

If the tank is bad then that's his/her fault for not researching their role/class properly, potentially forcing the 3/7 others to carry him/her. So I don't know where you get off thinking it's a DPS issue. Multidotting is key to being a good DPS, and should not be limited by a bad tank, no excuses (Shadewalker can be used in such situations).

I said it was a group effort in the very quote you posted, DPS are part of that group if you hadn't noticed. I like how you say no excuses too like gear level differences and skill differences aren't a thing.

Funny how Nita and Artemiz preach it's a groupwide effort but only find faults in those playing DPS.

Maybe that's because I was responding to someone who was refusing to take resonsibility for there own action as a DPS and the fact that this entire thread is about bad DPS. You should stop posting silly pictures and do more reading, you could do with the practice.

[ShanaShirayuki]

Snip

I never said anything about a low gear level, if that was the case I'd understand. My response was directly aimed at your comment of how if a tank is bad then it's still the DPSs fault for pulling aggro.

If you're going to debate someone, don't take his or her words and twist them to fit your argument, makes you seem more ignorant than the point you were trying to make. I'll also disregard your improper use of "there", even if you insulted my reading comprehension. If all you can do is attack the person and not their argument, then don't even bother replying.

[RiisWolf]

Good answer to the "it's the tank's job to clean up after me" attitude of yet another lazy, irresponsible DPS.

I actually think these clowns should spend some time playing a tank. Certainly I wouldn't expect them to learn much. That requires responsibility, and insight, which they lack. That's why they are DPS in the first place. But at the minimum they could transfer some of the (granted, small amount due to their limitations) gained knowledge of what it's like being a tank---> over to their job as DPS.

Good answer for someone who doesn't get how teamwork works.
"Let's make DPS understand Tanks, but let's not make Tanks understand DPS. It's always DPS's fault."
You can't just flip everything on DPS just because they're not tanks.
Everyone has their own responsibilities. Sure the other can help in some way but ultimately your responsibilities are your own.

What about when a tank refuses to use AoE, doesn't mark a thing, and switches targets every 2 seconds to fast blade one thing, savage blade another, rage of halone another after that and fast blade the first one again? That's ineffective vs. a DPS who is attacking whomever the tank attacked first and to DPS who frequently AoE. Nobody's going to guess every 2 seconds, that lack of focus and leadership leads to chaos on its own. But of course lets blame DPS for what the tank did not do to easily prevent that mess. It's almost if not just as bad as saying it's DPS's fault for not being able to get their positionals while the tank is randomly and constantly spinning the mobs.
Oh wait, I bet you wanna tell the summoner to wait before taking the time it already takes to set up their DoTs, even though by the time you get to level 52 you ought to be used to lobbing from a distance and flashing when you get close by then. And don't you lie to me about how that doesn't happen. And if you've been starting pulls with provoke, then it's not them who's the problem, YOU are the problem. Provoke does nothing when nobody has threat, which means even a card or eye for eye will draw attention.
It's extremely irresponsible to not mark and expect them to attack your targets, especially when you constantly switch targets or if the first one dies, at which point is resolved by using AoEs like you should have in the first place. That doesn't mean you can't expect them to not attack the bees first and other similar targets of priority.

What about when a tank comes there underpowered? Are you really going to conform to the tank's low standards when a piercing talon does as much threat as the tank's shield lob? How is that really fair, fun, or nice to DPS to blame them for coming there even barely prepared unlike the tank?

That's among other things by the way.

Obviously I have to mention when some hardcore hubris twit gives you a hard time. But I'm not because there's more important things to worry about that those worthless twits.

Hate is the tank's responsibility. This isn't an equal effort for threat, you most of all have to have the most threat. You have the tools, the multipliers, and the options to make it happen when DPS has none of that, and healers do 1/2 threat with healing. And the only times it's the DPS's fault is if they attacked during long pulls, somehow ruin pulls before any real fighting start, pull before tank pulls, attacks the wrong targets when marked and I mean single targets, if DPS fail to beat mechanics they are responsible for, fail to evade which causes problems for all of you, die excessively which causes problems for all of you, among other things.

By the way, as a main tank player in this game. It's easy. All you have to do is strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash. Flash does not interrupt combos, so it is a constant stream of threat and blinds. None of this complicated fake junk that the meta might have you believe. It's not even complicated to see that having to compete with DPS who are better geared than you will be a you problem YOU have to deal with as well. Easiest solution to that is to invest in some strength until you get better gear, and a lot of those threat problems will be go away. You got the time and space to shield lob, circle of scorn and flash before any good DPS hammers them.

DPS has to deal with timers, delays in their own moves, random procs, positionals, every new wrench to their long list of chores to deal high amounts of damage, more mechanics than a Tank will EVER be responsible for, being randomly targeted by bosses most of the time, and having to depend on the tank to do their job. But no, let's just pretend DPS is so lazy and free of responsibilities.

The best part about your responsibilities as the tank is so that you can make it easier on them, NOT to be pushing YOUR responsibilities onto them. If you can't understand that, then it won't be a wonder why you struggle to be a good tank or at any job for that matter.

[Februs]

By the way, as a main tank player in this game. It's easy. All you have to do is strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash. Flash does not interrupt combos, so it is a constant stream of threat and blinds. None of this complicated fake junk that the meta might have you believe.

For a person who mains Tanking, you don't seem to understand how to use a Pld correctly. So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that you just don't use Pld very often ... If ever. I wouldn't worry about it though. These days, most "main tank" players don't use Pld very often, let alone correctly.

In case you're interested though, Flash spamming is not how to tank mobs on Pld. Flash spamming is how you face-roll derp tank on Pld. You'll hold aggro like this, sure, but you are far from optimizing your roll. Flash should be cycled in accordance to the number of mobs being tanked and coordinated with the use of CoS, not just added willy-nilly between each attack. Given that party dps is the responsibility of the entire party, tanking using additional and unnecessary Flashes (which deals a whopping 0 dmg) is actively working against the party. It doesn't interrupt your combo, that's true, but it delays the combo for approximately 2.5 seconds (depending on personal skill speed). That's 2.5 seconds in which the Pld could be applying a DoT (Goring Blade) or reducing incoming Dmg (RoH, which also has the added benefit of having a much higher enmity generation than Flash). The Blind debuff is also wasted, because spamming Flash overlaps the timer of Blind, and Blind is resisted after 3 applications. There's more to it than this, but the short hand is that using additional Flashes past the minimum required is a waste of enmity, dps, and mitigation ... Of course, this would not matter to someone who thinks that the current Tank meta is "complicated fake junk," so I guess I'll just leave it there.

That aside, I do find it strange that you seem to have such difficulty with monitoring enmity, especially for someone who supposedly mains a Tank. Last I checked, the enmity meter is view-able to every player who is in combat, regardless of them being a tank or not. So, I'm not sure where all this guess work is coming in for you. I mean, the enmity bar is even colour coded for ease of use and convenience, and it's not like swapping targets is all that difficult. Pressing Tab or cycling on a D-pad seems pretty straight forward and doesn't throttle back a player's Dps at all. Given that maximizing party Dps is the sole responsibility of the Dps (something you seem to be advocating strongly), I would have thought that knowing how to cycle targets fluidly for proper DoT and Buff/Debuff applications would have been an essential skill for a Dps player. At the very least they might want to avoid accidentally turning a mob by stealing enmity and losing out on those positional potency bonuses you mentioned. I did not realize that it was so much harder for them to manage that ...

[RiisWolf]

snip

I'm not playing this game with you sweetie. What you fail to understand leads to the constant fallacies and preconceived notions you keep assuming. I don't need to spoon feed you when to stop, moderate, other obvious details, or silly things like optimizing your job when you can't make it function at a basic level. When you can't it work, then its not the time to optimize. If you want to be on top of a parser then stop, this is not the topic to be advocating your silly savage top PLD DPS junk. And don't lie to me about it's not about parsers, you're the one here pushing for avoiding flash solely for it doing no damage and delaying the time it takes to strike only ONE thing with RoH which already takes 5 seconds to get to, and the DR on its secondary effect doesn't change that. It does nobody good when you have no control. And yes the whole fake junk is the meta. All they care about is damage to meet parsers on an overtuned savage that has nothing to do with leveling or the vast majority of the game. If you want to deal damage 24/7 to a group of enemies, then play as warrior or dark knight. It's absurd that someone would be so bent on doing damage races as a PLD when it is in fact the very thing paladin most of all do not excel at and then to push it on others when they can't make the threat work. If you wanna force players to conform to you're refusal to direct and/or AoE threat, then have fun dragging the party down with your negligence.

So more real talk. You either cause threat to them all fast or DPS and/or healers will simply takes control no matter what they do. It's as simple as that. If you can't do that then you got almost no business blaming DPS or healers for anything you refuse to do. Again some of us will always AoE, in fact I'm pretty sure all of us except BLMs have AoEs to use in our normal routine vs anything so neglecting to apply threat on all enemies at the same time is especially bad. You do know that right? Switching targets constantly is bad on DPS because some need their DoTs on the current target for their moves to function, resistance debuffs don't affect any other than the one they were applied to, having to move more for positionals, and you'll be further away from using your execute type moves. Naturally this excludes the times you must switch for target of priority such as bees, totem poles, or boss adds that must die. But course I have to say it for you in- however vain- hopes that get the message, which you won't.

Can't wait to see what part of this you fail to read again.

Also don't confuse party responsibilities with individual responsibilities.

[HoodRat]

I'm confused. Are you saying that since pld doesn't have the best dps, then all plds should just do as little dps as possible?

[RiisWolf]

I'm confused. Are you saying that since pld doesn't have the best dps, then all plds should just do as little dps as possible?

No. It's not healthy to do absolutely no damage. It's not healthy to obsess over doing more damage while ignoring the weaknesses the job has that prevents you from doing as much as others.