Why are low standards for dps acceptable?

[Maxidelta]

Doesn't matter if wrong, right or somewhere inbetween. Fact of the matter is he chose to engage in an argument, got kicked for harassment, a GM will do nothing if brought up, the end. Next time either frame your question with a little less hostility or suffer in silence. Third option is to make your own party, won't have this problem then.

I'm baffled you attempted to antagonize them when clearly they outnumbered you for votes. Not very smart.

[TheUltimateSeph]

I know what elitism means, and you making a post to describe it is still missing the point and honestly feels like you're arguing for the sake defending yourself or being in the right.

Assuming that that is the only reason I'm arguing it is very presumptuous. I'm giving good examples and trying to get my point across. Can you address the examples I have given and go more in depth as to why you believe they aren't valid and how I'm missing the point please? I'm genuinely curious.

This was your reply to someone saying that you should have known that you get new skills as you level. At that point, you're skipping over the basic concepts of a game that has character growth (something you don't even need to research mind you, because any game with a leveling system grants your characters more skill, even if it's a beat em up like castle crashers.) It become less of an elistist attitude because you didn't meet their expectation, but more of an "What an idiot" attitude because you've overlooked something really big, but also very fundamental to the game (which again, applies to almost anything outside of this game)

Again this is subject to opinion. You see it as a big deal. And I'm sorry but your whole attitude towards players who don't use skills "What an idiot" is rather distasteful. There is always a good excuse and while the BLM may not have had a good excuse (I don't remember if they actually gave theirs or not, just that they weren't happy) just because you don't agree with it doesn't automatically make it bad.

Our point is, stop defending, making up excuses, and victimizing the people who apparently can't grasp basic concepts of a game (which isn't just not having the new a bilties, but not understanding job mechanics.. This isn't a new thing by the point you're level 50 and you're still doing so. You don't need to "research" anything to know that you get new abilities as you level, and that you get new abilities from quests. You keep making up excuses on why they wouldn't have it (and quite frankly, they're terrible excuses because all it really boils down to is that you're tunnel visioning.)

Maybe I was tunnel visioning but that doesn't make it any less of a valid excuse. I am very sorry for having even brought it up though because it seems to be the one thing people have latched onto instead of my arguments actually explaining excuses the BLM could have had for not using Enochian.

Honestly, no one even brought this (not having skills because they skipped MSQ) until you did, and then you get called out for it. The topic intially started at a BLM that has a skill he already has access to, but chooses not to use it, and you responded with how you didn't know there was new skills between 50-60. Honestly, it really should have stopped at "Yeah i was in a rush to complete the story and I completely forgot I can get new skills when I level", a short-sighted mistake tat you got called out on and should've been left at that. Which goes back to my example about tunnel visioning. The rift is happening because you're throwing out the elitist tag for people apparently to expect others to know that you gain skills as you level, never mind have an understand of basic gameplay that has been reoccurring as soon as level 2 of this game. You perceive it as an attack because it's happened to you, but instead of accepting it and moving on, you want to justify it then label others who have that expectation (because you may have not been able to meet it as such initially) or call people out for having it because it's so fundamental to the game an elitist.

I already explained how this was not directly related to the OPs situation and that I was only trying to give another example of why people may not use the skills as there is more then one reason.

You are still ignoring the healers input after the OP.

Youre so stuck in your bubble you cant fathom someone being ignorant to the game in general.

I think Critical-Limit has a good point. It feels like you just can't accept that others may have valid excuses for not using skills or playing the game to your standards that you are in fact tunnel visioning yourself instead of trying to understand from their perspective. You have already made it clear that you only think they are idiots for not knowing skills existed or for not using them. Can you please explain to me why exactly it gets to you so much? If it's because of these people slowing down your dungeon runs tons of good solutions have been scattered throughout this thread and the forums in general.


Edit:

In the end game dungeons such as Fractal Continuum and Neverreap, there are many dodge intensive mechanics and while for the Dragoon, keeping BoD up while dodging these mechanics can be easier due to the fact that we do not have cast times on our skills, for a Black Mage I am told it can be a total nightmare resulting in nothing but frustration and a headache. For example on the second boss of Nevereap I sometimes don't bother trying to keep BoD up because of how often I have to stop attacking the boss to run around picking up and carrying statues out of his aoe. It's just not practical. The first boss is somewhat difficult as well because of him disappearing for a time but that one isn't as bad. In Fractal Continuum I have seen BLMs have to choose between keeping up Enochian or dodging mechanics such as on the first boss. Several runs I have had BLMs who simply stood in his aoe so they could keep their rotation up. As I stated before I do not personally have my BLM up to 60 yet so I don't know first hand how difficult it actually is but I DO know that how difficult it is perceived to be will vary from person to person. While some may find it easy others may find it nerve racking and just use their 2.0 rotation instead.

I'm also interested in any arguments against this you may have. As in the bolded parts I have given reasons BLMs may not bother using Enochian or trying to keep it up. Why do you believe these are invalid?

[Reisui]

Let's all do as they proposed, use Party Finder, I honestly wonder how duty finder will survive...

[Frederick22]

Doesn't matter if wrong, right or somewhere inbetween. Fact of the matter is he chose to engage in an argument, got kicked for harassment, a GM will do nothing if brought up, the end. Next time either frame your question with a little less hostility or suffer in silence. Third option is to make your own party, won't have this problem then.

I'm baffled you attempted to antagonize them when clearly they outnumbered you for votes. Not very smart.

Seriously man, you should read the entire thread before making such a comment like that.

[Reilyn]

Not really. They don't care as long as you don't use it to harras people.

Pretty much, but as this entire situation shows us, people get offended when you ask them a simple question about their DPS, or whatever else in text devoid of tone. Now imagine how fast those same kinds of people will report you for saying 'my parser shows your dps is kinda low' and say you're harassing them with the parser instead of taking the input gracefully.

Safer to not mention it at all, even if the group and player performance stands to benefit from knowing something needs to be improved on. That is what a sizable portion of our community breeds; ignorance. This is why I may seem 'hyper-aggressive' because of these self-destructive mindsets being defended, and indirectly encouraged that make playing with other people outside of our little circles a more taxing experience than it ever should be.

This is why I say much of the community has shit player quality.

[AnaviAnael]

There is a fine line between playing the game wrong (IE: Not using a skill at all) and not playing up to your standards (Not using a skill as often as you think it should be used despite victory)

But this is what a lot of us are saying. Like someone else said, nobody's expecting savage tier damage in DF. All we want is for people to play properly.

[Kaurie]

I find it interesting that the person in the OP's chat can respond to the OP in the manner that they did, and will face no repercussions. Now, if we slightly modify the situation and the person who responded adds in the word "My parser says", they'll likely to be banned. Apparently harassment and being totally rude are OK as long as you don't have a parser to back up your claim.

It is pretty hilarious how many people not only defend people playing poorly, but seem to think that it's fun, enjoyable or good that people are pathetically horrible.

Not everyone pays attention to the obvious .

I'm not sure about you, but I consider that embarrassing.

[RiceisNice]

Assuming that that is the only reason I'm arguing it is very presumptuous. I'm giving good examples and trying to get my point across. Can you address the examples I have given and go more in depth as to why you believe they aren't valid and how I'm missing the point please? I'm genuinely curious.

You're explaining to me what elitism is when that's not the point I'm getting. I'm saying it's not elitism when people have the expectation of people understanding the basics of a game they're playing (espesically at level 60). You already tried to pointed it out as such in your original post. That's what's causing so much problem with both sides because you're wrongly/loosely using the term.

Again this is subject to opinion. You see it as a big deal. And I'm sorry but your whole attitude towards players who don't use skills "What an idiot" is rather distasteful. There is always a good excuse and while the BLM may not have had a good excuse (I don't remember if they actually gave theirs or not, just that they weren't happy) just because you don't agree with it doesn't automatically make it bad.

Actually,not having a basic understanding of what you're doing is a bit of a problem, and can become a bigger problem depending on the circumstances. And I don't mean "what an idiot" as a direct insult, but that's the best way to sum it up. They done goofed, and everyone can move on rather than making up excuses or victimizing themselves for it.

Maybe I was tunnel visioning but that doesn't make it any less of a valid excuse. I am very sorry for having even brought it up though because it seems to be the one thing people have latched onto instead of my arguments actually explaining excuses the BLM could have had for not using Enochian.

Ignorance is never a good excuse. But I like said, it's a mistake, you done goofed, move on and stop defending it or justifying it. That sort of mentality is a problem across the board when people are not willing or doesn't want to contribute past the bare minimum in any form of party play.

I think Critical-Limit has a good point. It feels like you just can't accept that others may have valid excuses for not using skills or playing the game to your standards that you are in fact tunnel visioning yourself instead of trying to understand from their perspective. You have already made it clear that you only think they are idiots for not knowing skills existed or for not using them. Can you please explain to me why exactly it gets to you so much? If it's because of these people slowing down your dungeon runs tons of good solutions have been scattered throughout this thread and the forums in general.

I didn't consider or call them to be idiots, but rather summarized it (due to a lack for a better word) is that the situation is "what an idiot", similar to what you'd see for people balantly ignoring warning signs or very standard instructions in their setting. And now you're taking my words out of context (having a basic understanding of getting skills as you level) and applying it to a dungeon setting, which is an entirely different premise. It takes a lot more than missing their 50-60 skills to be able to slow a party run that long, otherwise you have bigger underlying problems.

Not to mention critical limit's post (the one you linked) is also taking my reply out of context or in the wrong regard.

[Andrea]

I'm also interested in any arguments against this you may have. As in the bolded parts I have given reasons BLMs may not bother using Enochian or trying to keep it up. Why do you believe these are invalid?

Choosing between dodging mechanics or taking the hit depends on how well 1. the healer is healing and 2. will you take anymore damage in the next moments before being able to heal up? if you can take a hit and wont take damage again for a while then sure take the hit.

May not have been asked to me but if a BLM is using the 2.0 rotation and nothing else they shouldn't be in any level 60 content at all. If you are attempting to do your level 60 rotation im fine with that, but when you do your level 50 rotation just because you find it nerve racking or simply don't want to bother to even try to learn it then you are being completely rude to the other people and have no place being there.

[TheUltimateSeph]

I didn't consider or call them to be idiots, but rather summarized it (due to a lack for a better word) is that the situation is "what an idiot", similar to what you'd see for people balantly ignoring warning signs or very standard instructions in their setting. And now you're taking my words out of context (having a basic understanding of getting skills as you level) and applying it to a dungeon setting, which is an entirely different premise. It takes a lot more than missing their 50-60 skills to be able to slow a party run that long, otherwise you have bigger underlying problems.

Except that there are no instructions. There is no in game message telling the player they will have new skills. There is a big difference in ignoring something and not knowing about something.

The first bolded part, I'm sorry I fail to see the difference in the two. Both are referring to the person as an idiot regardless of the difference in wording.

Choosing between dodging mechanics or taking the hit depends on how well 1. the healer is healing and 2. will you take anymore damage in the next moments before being able to heal up? if you can take a hit and wont take damage again for a while then sure take the hit.

May not have been asked to me but if a BLM is using the 2.0 rotation and nothing else they shouldn't be in any level 60 content at all. If you are attempting to do your level 60 rotation im fine with that, but when you do your level 50 rotation just because you find it nerve racking or simply don't want to bother to even try to learn it then you are being completely rude to the other people and have no place being there.

The healer at the time was me so I knew I would be able to keep them up. In that case I guess it's fine I guess, though this could very well fall under the whole "Healer having to pick up the slack from dps wanting to stand in aoes" argument. There was no communication beforehand either that they weren't going to dodge the aoes so when I suddenly see them start taking big hits I am caught a little off guard.

In regards to a BLM using only their 2.0 rotation and nothing else not belonging in level 60 content I might agree with you if only it was required that they MUST use their 3.0 rotation to complete the content. If you have people who know their 2.0 rotations well, even if everyone in the party only uses their 2.0 rotations, they will still clear the content in a reasonable amount of time (and this will vary from class to class). Blame this one on SE for making it too easy. If the content could NOT be cleared without the use of 3.0 rotations then that would be a totally valid argument as to why people not using them should be completely unacceptable.