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  1. #1
    Player
    TheUltimateSeph's Avatar
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    Dec 2015
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    Ul'dah
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    Character
    Adolf Weismann
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by RiceisNice View Post
    I know what elitism means, and you making a post to describe it is still missing the point and honestly feels like you're arguing for the sake defending yourself or being in the right.
    Assuming that that is the only reason I'm arguing it is very presumptuous. I'm giving good examples and trying to get my point across. Can you address the examples I have given and go more in depth as to why you believe they aren't valid and how I'm missing the point please? I'm genuinely curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by RiceisNice View Post
    This was your reply to someone saying that you should have known that you get new skills as you level. At that point, you're skipping over the basic concepts of a game that has character growth (something you don't even need to research mind you, because any game with a leveling system grants your characters more skill, even if it's a beat em up like castle crashers.) It become less of an elistist attitude because you didn't meet their expectation, but more of an "What an idiot" attitude because you've overlooked something really big, but also very fundamental to the game (which again, applies to almost anything outside of this game)
    Again this is subject to opinion. You see it as a big deal. And I'm sorry but your whole attitude towards players who don't use skills "What an idiot" is rather distasteful. There is always a good excuse and while the BLM may not have had a good excuse (I don't remember if they actually gave theirs or not, just that they weren't happy) just because you don't agree with it doesn't automatically make it bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by RiceisNice View Post
    Our point is, stop defending, making up excuses, and victimizing the people who apparently can't grasp basic concepts of a game (which isn't just not having the new a bilties, but not understanding job mechanics.. This isn't a new thing by the point you're level 50 and you're still doing so. You don't need to "research" anything to know that you get new abilities as you level, and that you get new abilities from quests. You keep making up excuses on why they wouldn't have it (and quite frankly, they're terrible excuses because all it really boils down to is that you're tunnel visioning.)
    Maybe I was tunnel visioning but that doesn't make it any less of a valid excuse. I am very sorry for having even brought it up though because it seems to be the one thing people have latched onto instead of my arguments actually explaining excuses the BLM could have had for not using Enochian.


    Quote Originally Posted by RiceisNice View Post
    Honestly, no one even brought this (not having skills because they skipped MSQ) until you did, and then you get called out for it. The topic intially started at a BLM that has a skill he already has access to, but chooses not to use it, and you responded with how you didn't know there was new skills between 50-60. Honestly, it really should have stopped at "Yeah i was in a rush to complete the story and I completely forgot I can get new skills when I level", a short-sighted mistake tat you got called out on and should've been left at that. Which goes back to my example about tunnel visioning. The rift is happening because you're throwing out the elitist tag for people apparently to expect others to know that you gain skills as you level, never mind have an understand of basic gameplay that has been reoccurring as soon as level 2 of this game. You perceive it as an attack because it's happened to you, but instead of accepting it and moving on, you want to justify it then label others who have that expectation (because you may have not been able to meet it as such initially) or call people out for having it because it's so fundamental to the game an elitist.
    I already explained how this was not directly related to the OPs situation and that I was only trying to give another example of why people may not use the skills as there is more then one reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Critical-Limit View Post
    You are still ignoring the healers input after the OP.

    Youre so stuck in your bubble you cant fathom someone being ignorant to the game in general.
    I think Critical-Limit has a good point. It feels like you just can't accept that others may have valid excuses for not using skills or playing the game to your standards that you are in fact tunnel visioning yourself instead of trying to understand from their perspective. You have already made it clear that you only think they are idiots for not knowing skills existed or for not using them. Can you please explain to me why exactly it gets to you so much? If it's because of these people slowing down your dungeon runs tons of good solutions have been scattered throughout this thread and the forums in general.


    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph View Post
    In the end game dungeons such as Fractal Continuum and Neverreap, there are many dodge intensive mechanics and while for the Dragoon, keeping BoD up while dodging these mechanics can be easier due to the fact that we do not have cast times on our skills, for a Black Mage I am told it can be a total nightmare resulting in nothing but frustration and a headache. For example on the second boss of Nevereap I sometimes don't bother trying to keep BoD up because of how often I have to stop attacking the boss to run around picking up and carrying statues out of his aoe. It's just not practical. The first boss is somewhat difficult as well because of him disappearing for a time but that one isn't as bad. In Fractal Continuum I have seen BLMs have to choose between keeping up Enochian or dodging mechanics such as on the first boss. Several runs I have had BLMs who simply stood in his aoe so they could keep their rotation up. As I stated before I do not personally have my BLM up to 60 yet so I don't know first hand how difficult it actually is but I DO know that how difficult it is perceived to be will vary from person to person. While some may find it easy others may find it nerve racking and just use their 2.0 rotation instead.
    I'm also interested in any arguments against this you may have. As in the bolded parts I have given reasons BLMs may not bother using Enochian or trying to keep it up. Why do you believe these are invalid?
    (1)
    Last edited by TheUltimateSeph; 01-27-2016 at 02:34 AM.

  2. #2
    Player
    RiceisNice's Avatar
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    Flo Fyloord
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    Famfrit
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    Machinist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph View Post
    Assuming that that is the only reason I'm arguing it is very presumptuous. I'm giving good examples and trying to get my point across. Can you address the examples I have given and go more in depth as to why you believe they aren't valid and how I'm missing the point please? I'm genuinely curious.
    You're explaining to me what elitism is when that's not the point I'm getting. I'm saying it's not elitism when people have the expectation of people understanding the basics of a game they're playing (espesically at level 60). You already tried to pointed it out as such in your original post. That's what's causing so much problem with both sides because you're wrongly/loosely using the term.



    Quote Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph View Post
    Again this is subject to opinion. You see it as a big deal. And I'm sorry but your whole attitude towards players who don't use skills "What an idiot" is rather distasteful. There is always a good excuse and while the BLM may not have had a good excuse (I don't remember if they actually gave theirs or not, just that they weren't happy) just because you don't agree with it doesn't automatically make it bad.
    Actually,not having a basic understanding of what you're doing is a bit of a problem, and can become a bigger problem depending on the circumstances. And I don't mean "what an idiot" as a direct insult, but that's the best way to sum it up. They done goofed, and everyone can move on rather than making up excuses or victimizing themselves for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph View Post
    Maybe I was tunnel visioning but that doesn't make it any less of a valid excuse. I am very sorry for having even brought it up though because it seems to be the one thing people have latched onto instead of my arguments actually explaining excuses the BLM could have had for not using Enochian.
    Ignorance is never a good excuse. But I like said, it's a mistake, you done goofed, move on and stop defending it or justifying it. That sort of mentality is a problem across the board when people are not willing or doesn't want to contribute past the bare minimum in any form of party play.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph View Post
    I think Critical-Limit has a good point. It feels like you just can't accept that others may have valid excuses for not using skills or playing the game to your standards that you are in fact tunnel visioning yourself instead of trying to understand from their perspective. You have already made it clear that you only think they are idiots for not knowing skills existed or for not using them. Can you please explain to me why exactly it gets to you so much? If it's because of these people slowing down your dungeon runs tons of good solutions have been scattered throughout this thread and the forums in general.
    I didn't consider or call them to be idiots, but rather summarized it (due to a lack for a better word) is that the situation is "what an idiot", similar to what you'd see for people balantly ignoring warning signs or very standard instructions in their setting. And now you're taking my words out of context (having a basic understanding of getting skills as you level) and applying it to a dungeon setting, which is an entirely different premise. It takes a lot more than missing their 50-60 skills to be able to slow a party run that long, otherwise you have bigger underlying problems.

    Not to mention critical limit's post (the one you linked) is also taking my reply out of context or in the wrong regard.
    (5)
    Last edited by RiceisNice; 01-27-2016 at 02:36 AM.

  3. #3
    Player
    TheUltimateSeph's Avatar
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    Adolf Weismann
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    Gilgamesh
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    White Mage Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by RiceisNice View Post
    I didn't consider or call them to be idiots, but rather summarized it (due to a lack for a better word) is that the situation is "what an idiot", similar to what you'd see for people balantly ignoring warning signs or very standard instructions in their setting. And now you're taking my words out of context (having a basic understanding of getting skills as you level) and applying it to a dungeon setting, which is an entirely different premise. It takes a lot more than missing their 50-60 skills to be able to slow a party run that long, otherwise you have bigger underlying problems.
    Except that there are no instructions. There is no in game message telling the player they will have new skills. There is a big difference in ignoring something and not knowing about something.

    The first bolded part, I'm sorry I fail to see the difference in the two. Both are referring to the person as an idiot regardless of the difference in wording.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrea View Post
    Choosing between dodging mechanics or taking the hit depends on how well 1. the healer is healing and 2. will you take anymore damage in the next moments before being able to heal up? if you can take a hit and wont take damage again for a while then sure take the hit.

    May not have been asked to me but if a BLM is using the 2.0 rotation and nothing else they shouldn't be in any level 60 content at all. If you are attempting to do your level 60 rotation im fine with that, but when you do your level 50 rotation just because you find it nerve racking or simply don't want to bother to even try to learn it then you are being completely rude to the other people and have no place being there.

    The healer at the time was me so I knew I would be able to keep them up. In that case I guess it's fine I guess, though this could very well fall under the whole "Healer having to pick up the slack from dps wanting to stand in aoes" argument. There was no communication beforehand either that they weren't going to dodge the aoes so when I suddenly see them start taking big hits I am caught a little off guard.

    In regards to a BLM using only their 2.0 rotation and nothing else not belonging in level 60 content I might agree with you if only it was required that they MUST use their 3.0 rotation to complete the content. If you have people who know their 2.0 rotations well, even if everyone in the party only uses their 2.0 rotations, they will still clear the content in a reasonable amount of time (and this will vary from class to class). Blame this one on SE for making it too easy. If the content could NOT be cleared without the use of 3.0 rotations then that would be a totally valid argument as to why people not using them should be completely unacceptable.
    (0)
    Last edited by TheUltimateSeph; 01-27-2016 at 02:59 AM.

  4. #4
    Player Kaurie's Avatar
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    Kaurie Lorhart
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    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph View Post
    Except that there are no instructions. There is no in game message telling the player they will have new skills. There is a big difference in ignoring something and not knowing about something.

    The first bolded part, I'm sorry I fail to see the difference in the two. Both are referring to the person as an idiot regardless of the difference in wording.
    There are no in-game instructions, there is just inductive reasoning. Historically, you gained a job skill every 5 levels and class skills more often. You now gained 5 new levels, it is a logical conclusion that you would have at least 1 new skill. You check your quest journal and see where your last quest ended off, and teleport there. Now you see a ! and talk to the NPC to see a 50 quest, upon completion you'll get a 52 and 54. This is the worst case scenario, if you hadn't known that they moved job quests to 2 levels rather than 5, and/or if you did not take a look at the patch notes.

    Honestly, I am surprised you were able to find the MSQ to Ishgard with the line of reasoning you are suggesting is normal.
    (2)

  5. #5
    Player
    RiceisNice's Avatar
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    Flo Fyloord
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    Famfrit
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    Machinist Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph View Post
    Except that there are no instructions. There is no in game message telling the player they will have new skills. There is a big difference in ignoring something and not knowing about something.

    The first bolded part, I'm sorry I fail to see the difference in the two. Both are referring to the person as an idiot regardless of the difference in wording.
    If you're really talking semantics (instead of understanding where I'm coming from), then you really are just arguing for the sake of arguing now :l

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaurie View Post
    Honestly, I am surprised you were able to find the MSQ to Ishgard with the line of reasoning you are suggesting is normal.
    There's also this, and the job quest npcs are instanced so you wouldn't see them on the map for the most part.
    (2)

  6. #6
    Player
    Andrea's Avatar
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    Princess Andrea
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    Leviathan
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    Alchemist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph View Post
    In regards to a BLM using only their 2.0 rotation and nothing else not belonging in level 60 content I might agree with you if only it was required that they MUST use their 3.0 rotation to complete the content.
    Just because you don't need to do something doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

    A tank can just spam flash and nothing else. Should they do it? No of course not they should help kill things.
    A dragoon could just do heavy thrust and nothing else and clear a dungeon. Should they do it? No.

    It not only makes the run take longer than it should but you are also slowing down 3-7 other people because you simply refuse to learn a new rotation. Im sorry but that is 100% rude in anyway no matter how someone tries to defend it.
    (2)

  7. #7
    Player
    Andrea's Avatar
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    Princess Andrea
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    Leviathan
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    Alchemist Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph View Post
    I'm also interested in any arguments against this you may have. As in the bolded parts I have given reasons BLMs may not bother using Enochian or trying to keep it up. Why do you believe these are invalid?
    Choosing between dodging mechanics or taking the hit depends on how well 1. the healer is healing and 2. will you take anymore damage in the next moments before being able to heal up? if you can take a hit and wont take damage again for a while then sure take the hit.

    May not have been asked to me but if a BLM is using the 2.0 rotation and nothing else they shouldn't be in any level 60 content at all. If you are attempting to do your level 60 rotation im fine with that, but when you do your level 50 rotation just because you find it nerve racking or simply don't want to bother to even try to learn it then you are being completely rude to the other people and have no place being there.
    (1)

  8. #8
    Player
    Kuwagami's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    Character
    Kuwagami Tarynke
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 78
    Quote Originally Posted by TheUltimateSeph View Post
    I'm also interested in any arguments against this you may have. As in the bolded parts I have given reasons BLMs may not bother using Enochian or trying to keep it up. Why do you believe these are invalid?
    I can get behind a BLm not being comfortable keeping enochian at all times. It takes time and practice to perfect a rotation.

    Not even using it is downright idiotic and such people are not worth the time spent explaining them why they are idiots while not hurting their feelings. This is a 30s buff giving you 5% more damage. Not using it is akin to not being able to read. It's not like the Fate-levelling generation of players can still surprise me though. I think I've seen all kind of stupidity related to skills by now.
    (7)