Why are low standards for dps acceptable?

[Miste]

All I know is that if I was half the hardass this thread seems to want to promote I'd probably be having a less productive time in the df from trying to make big things out of nothing and leaving in a huff. I make fun of the idea of dps measuring races but the truth is that I find fighting the party more than than the boss a turn off.

In your opinion its making a big thing out of nothing but when people refuse to even TRY to do their job properly it shows a severe lack of consideration for the rest of the people in the group; its supposed to be a team effort after all. This isn't a solo player game, when you load into DF there is other human players in there with you. Not knowing how to play your job is one thing as long as people are open to advice and actually attempt to do better I don't even care if they are doing less than average. Most players I don't even say anything to unless they are really missing something crucial.

I am super tolerant, I have used the vote kick feature probably one to two times in the last year. There is a point of tolerance that some people eventually can cross to make me give up the run and either kick the player or just leave myself.

For example people who immediately crap on people who ask other players nicely if they could do/or not do something in their toolkit to help the run go smoother I will leave because I don't wanna play with someone like that. People get so defensive its getting really ridiculous to the point where if anyone even asks a nicely worded question to someone in a group either the player it was directed at starts throwing insults or someone in the group decides to be their knight in shining armor and "shield" this player from this barrage of apparent hostility that wasn't even there in the initial question. I had a dungeon run in Vault with someone using an i110 weapon...I let them know nicely where they could purchase a better weapon for themselves after the run was over. Even something like that caused another member in the group to rage at me for just offering help to this player because they seemed new. Like I am the devil incarnate for just letting a new player know where to get upgrades. They ranted on about who cares the run is fine (even though it was awfully slow but I didn't care too much) and how I should take my elitist attitude and leave. I have plenty of other stories but this post is already long enough.

Another example is people who know something is good for their job to do but purposefully don't do it. I've seen soooooooooooooo many DRG's at 60 that don't use Heavy Thrust. Normally I will let them know nicely it helps their damage and some will start using it, they don't always keep it up but I don't care because they are trying at least. I actually had a DRG recently that said "I know what Heavy Thrust is" after I mentioned to him that it would help his DPS. This was after the first boss in a 60 dungeon and he never used it during the entire boss fight or on the trash before it. So he knows what it is so I asked him "if you know it is good why wouldn't you use it?" and apparently he just didn't feel like using it. I wouldn't have said anything at all to him if he just had the buff on even half the time or even just for bosses, but to not use it AT ALL even though he KNEW it was good? This is the mentality that just baffles the hell out of me. If you don't like using Heavy Thrust why even play DRG?

A lot of people in this game have to stop getting defensive with every little thing that is said. Take a minute to think about it when a fellow player asks you a question or gives you some advice; maybe JUST maybe they are actually just trying to help you? Not saying there aren't trolls or rude people, there are, but don't assume that unless they start full on insulting you.

Obviously OP made a mistake; calling someone a bot isn't the way to assist other players just because they might not answer right away. This is more in general with my experiences with people who really seem to try hard at playing as lazily as they can and lash out even if people offer help. It's not a solo game and if you are going to give zero consideration to the other people in your group and not even try to do decently then don't be surprised or mad if you get kicked or people ditch you because they are treating you how you are treating them; like NPC's who don't matter.

This is even coming from someone who has really low standards for others, I never expect people to do 90-100% I give them the consideration that they might be new to the game, new to the job, not as experienced, not feeling well IRL, tired, etc, but if you are really that tired or not feeling well that you can't hit one extra button to use your DPS rotation even just half correct then maybe you need to take a break. 50% of your potential is all I ask, sadly it is happening more and more that I see people who don't even hit this already low expectation and refuse to take advice or even try to do better.

[Derceto]

Why did everyone turn against me when I was in the right?

It's called "tact". Maybe look into it.

[KinSlayer009]

When the healer is letting people die everyone rages ! omg get better Wtf just heal me ! what are you doing......
when the tnk cannot hold aggro or is not dodging aoe's what a shitty tnk cannot hold aggro would not dodge or use CD on busters....
But god forbids we say to the dps that they are doing shitty dps TEHN OMG how dare you say that to me ! i PLAY the game the way i want to you cannot judge me by my dps ! i'm reporting you for using a parse...
DPS are the Feminist of FFXIV always Triggered... cry babies

[CGMidlander]

It's called "tact". Maybe look into it.

IMO only an oversensitive moron ignores genuine criticism, even if the criticism was given in a rude manner.

They have the right to ask the critic not to be rude, but they really shouldn't use that as an excuse to dodge the question as well.
The BLM should have given proper thought as to why they weren't using Enochian. The fact that they didn't just suggests that they're likely the type of bad who isn't keen on improving.

[DukeGr]

People need to accept the fact that this game is noob friendly. I will explain why with a few simple facts.

1)There's absolutely no need to learn using new skills, you can be level 60 and use the level 10 rotation and still finish most story content.
2)There's no need to even do your job quest in order to progress, its more often than not i see Marauders and Conjurers joining level 50 roulettes.
3)There's no item level restriction on most content or roulettes, you can join an Aurum Vale or Dusk Vigil wearing level 20-30 white stuff.
4)Hard content is not needed in this game and works as an afterthought, since you can just get into an op Void Ark group, and get free 200-210 by doing nothing or Diadem for zerg mode free 210's.
5)The whole anonymity thing from DF and people joining from several servers makes this even worst. In other games you would flag bad players, people payed attention not to ridicule themselves. Here noone gives a flying f..k since most likely you wont meet again.
6)All the above carebear type of gameplay makes people lazy and not willing to invest time to learn how to play properly.

All these problems wont get solved because lets face it, this is a casual console/pc game, that is not bad in itself if you of course know what to expect and not burst into rage every time something you dont like happens.

[Critical-Limit]

IMO only an oversensitive moron ignores genuine criticism, even if the criticism was given in a rude manner.

They have the right to ask the critic not to be rude, but they really shouldn't use that as an excuse to dodge the question as well.
The BLM should have given proper thought as to why they weren't using Enochian. The fact that they didn't just suggests that they're likely the type of bad who isn't keen on improving.

Once again, the BLM shouldn't respond to implied insult with insult. But that BLM DID take the criticism. The white Mage of their group who already posted in this thread. Said the BLM started using it after OP was kicked. I call that listening to harsh criticism. They took the advice but also monopoly on kicked him out of the dungeon

[Waliel]

They're third party software and thus against the TOS, Yoshi-P has stated he dislikes them because it breeds eliteism and thus has no plans to add one. (I vaugely recall talk of them consdieirng adding one that shows Your own and only your own DPS to appese the self improvement crowd though). They have and will ban players that publicly admit to using them.

Half true. Yoshi himself has nothing against parsers and understands their use. He even said you're "free" to use them as long as you're not a dick to everyone else, which falls into harrasment category regardless of parsing or not. They're only against TOS because of them being third party and Squenix can't officially support that.

[Laladyn]

Game needs a ingame parser, thats all.

[RiceisNice]

I think there may be some confusion between the differences in an Elite and an Elitist.

I know what elitism means, and you making a post to describe it is still missing the point and honestly feels like you're arguing for the sake defending yourself or being in the right.

Sorry all I see in you right now is an elitist who thinks everyone should automatically know things about the game based on some innate knowledge and research everything about the game whenever new patches are released. I stand by everything I have said here, and will only admit I could have said some of it nicer. Have a nice day/

This was your reply to someone saying that you should have known that you get new skills as you level. At that point, you're skipping over the basic concepts of a game that has character growth (something you don't even need to research mind you, because any game with a leveling system grants your characters more skill, even if it's a beat em up like castle crashers.) It become less of an elistist attitude because you didn't meet their expectation, but more of an "What an idiot" attitude because you've overlooked something really big, but also very fundamental to the game (which again, applies to almost anything outside of this game)

Our point is, stop defending, making up excuses, and victimizing the people who apparently can't grasp basic concepts of a game (which isn't just not having the new a bilties, but not understanding job mechanics.. This isn't a new thing by the point you're level 50 and you're still doing so. You don't need to "research" anything to know that you get new abilities as you level, and that you get new abilities from quests. You keep making up excuses on why they wouldn't have it (and quite frankly, they're terrible excuses because all it really boils down to is that you're tunnel visioning.)

But berating them for it and saying that they are what's wrong with the game isn't the way to approach the situation. It only alienates them and that is what creates this rift between extremely casual and more mid-core to hard-core players. This is all just my opinion of course.

Honestly, no one even brought this (not having skills because they skipped MSQ) until you did, and then you get called out for it. The topic intially started at a BLM that has a skill he already has access to, but chooses not to use it, and you responded with how you didn't know there was new skills between 50-60. Honestly, it really should have stopped at "Yeah i was in a rush to complete the story and I completely forgot I can get new skills when I level", a short-sighted mistake tat you got called out on and should've been left at that. Which goes back to my example about tunnel visioning. The rift is happening because you're throwing out the elitist tag for people apparently to expect others to know that you gain skills as you level, never mind have an understand of basic gameplay that has been reoccurring as soon as level 2 of this game. You perceive it as an attack because it's happened to you, but instead of accepting it and moving on, you want to justify it then label others who have that expectation (because you may have not been able to meet it as such initially) or call people out for having it because it's so fundamental to the game an elitist.

Regardless of your "hard numbers" or lack of, they can still kick you for calling them out if they have the support of more than themselves in 4 man content. Parsers wont help the problem at all, in my opinion they would only add another layer to the entire mess giving people another large stick to beat people with. Parsers are great for endgame content, but if your parsing people in a roulette dungeon just to call them out because they aren't going all out?]

People are going to do this regardless of parsers. However, its also grounds for people to genuinely not know where they are placing in their performance in a dungeon, and leaves for less "credibility" for the dps to gauge their contribution to the group (as opposed to the tank or healers, especially in a game where they both can contribute to dps). Right now if I was in a group, I can't even tell people they're doing less than the healers without being able to prove it and not risk getting myself banned. The "stick" is already there for people who have the parsers, except they just do it behind your back so chances are, they won't even know they're doing less than ideal without a word being said to them. If the concern is verbal harassment for doing low numbers...well verbal harassment is reportable to begin with and I don't think that it'd be a huge issue (espesically if said people are going ot harass people with low numbers because they have ACT on anyway, they just won't say it up front).

IMO only an oversensitive moron ignores genuine criticism, even if the criticism was given in a rude manner.

They have the right to ask the critic not to be rude, but they really shouldn't use that as an excuse to dodge the question as well.
The BLM should have given proper thought as to why they weren't using Enochian. The fact that they didn't just suggests that they're likely the type of bad who isn't keen on improving.

I'll say it again, because I feel that this is key to any sort of communication in regards to critique; It's only offensive if you take it as such. I personally wouldn't have minded being called a bot because honestly, no one ever talks in DF and I've had my fair share of botting. However if your performance can get that monotonous (which every job can do in regards to 1, 1-2-3 or BLM astral/umbral patterns is concerned,and the latter is incredibly notorious for that) to that point then something is up especially in a level 60 setting. Not to say there wasn't a better way of approaching it, but they wanted to make a scene out of it. They ended up starting using enochian, so they're just kicking for extremely petty reasons instead of legitimate ones :x

[Seryl199]

There is a fine line between playing the game wrong (IE: Not using a skill at all) and not playing up to your standards (Not using a skill as often as you think it should be used despite victory)

There's a distinct line between a player that is ignoring part of their toolkit and a player that plays imperfectly, but tries. I'd rather play with a newbie that struggles with their rotation than an "experienced" player that ignores part of their rotation because they feel it's beneath them.