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  1. #1
    Player
    Atoli's Avatar
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    Nhai Tayuun
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    I think many of the people who now complain about Yoshi-P's direction of the game never lived through the mess FFXIV once was. It failed for a reason, people.
    Yes, there were many great ideas that I really miss and which had to be sacrificed to make the rebirth work, but I do not miss the many many other horrible things that are gone now and their absence many don't apprechiate because that's standard in today's MMOs but 1.0 had them.

    To answer the OP:
    I can see how this kind of cutscene could be problematic in ARR's story. In ARR, we are the obvious heroes. The beastmen who don't want to summon their Primals are okay, but every other beastmen is a target and summoning a Primal is "evil" (because Aether drain) without ever wondering WHY the tribes summon their Primals in the first place. The Circle of Knowing tells us "They are bad and you are good so go and defeat them" and we just obey. We should probably try and get rid of the REASON the beasttribes do those summonings, but instead we only deal with the result of the original problem, not the cause. It's like dropping bombs on a country to get rid of terrorists without thinking about what made people terrorists in the first place..

    I do think though that Yoshi-P's team is slowly steering into a more..ambivalent direction lately, with the DRK storyline, Shiva in general, what Thordan told us before he died, the presumable origin of the WoD and so on.
    So while a scenario in which we are clearly the bad guys and the Primals are the victims is unlikely, we are leaving the "you are the perfect hero of light" path slowly but surely
    (2)

  2. #2
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    Felis's Avatar
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    Skadi Felis
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    Pugilist Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Atoli View Post
    To answer the OP:
    I can see how this kind of cutscene could be problematic in ARR's story. In ARR, we are the obvious heroes. The beastmen who don't want to summon their Primals are okay, but every other beastmen is a target and summoning a Primal is "evil" (because Aether drain) without ever wondering WHY the tribes summon their Primals in the first place. The Circle of Knowing tells us "They are bad and you are good so go and defeat them" and we just obey. We should probably try and get rid of the REASON the beasttribes do those summonings, but instead we only deal with the result of the original problem, not the cause. It's like dropping bombs on a country to get rid of terrorists without thinking about what made people terrorists in the first place..
    But we know the reason, and we fight against the reason.
    Ascians
    (5)

  3. #3
    Player
    Atoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felis View Post
    But we know the reason, and we fight against the reason.
    Ascians
    Ascians are not the reason why they summoned the Primals, they merely taught the bestmen how to do it.
    It's like teaching someone how to use a gun. Sure, if they only knew how to throw a stone at you the results would be less grave if they decide to go crazy on you, but it's still their decision what to do with that knowledge. The beastmen were desperate before, it's just that the Ascians gave them the power to do horrible things with all their desperation and anger.

    silentwindfr pretty much summed up the reasons for several tribes, they are well-known, but never adressed. For Sahagin and Kobolds, Limsa is their main opressor. Their land gets stolen, their children are killed, treaties are being ignored and if they are lucky enough to not get an axe to the head as soon as they show up even remotely in the area of humans, they get discriminated against in the worst ways possible. But we do NOTHING about it. We are like "oh yeah, I guess that happened...now let's slay their sole protector again!" and then wonder why they summon them again and again and again, draining more aether everytime.
    What we SHOULD be doing is adressing those issues - find zones for the Sahagin to have their babies, give the Kobolds their land back and forbid people from stealing it on their own. Hire the Kobolds to help with the repairs from the catastrophe, since they are known to be master builders and therefore reduce prejudices against them and solve the problem of people not having anywhere to live at the same time. Of course, the one to make those kinds of decisions is the Admiral, not the WoL. But the city leaders aren't just quite in our debt anyway, our organisation is also the only one who is able to fight against the Primals. So a little threat of NOT removing the primal problem if they don't work on long-lasting solutions wouldn't hurt..

    Of course, this is even more true for the tribes that are afraid of the Garleans. Since the Operation Archon, most of the Garlean bases were cut off from their homeland, no more provisions, weapon supplies, new troops or anything. In Northern Thanalan we learn that the main reason why they leave their base and go hunt on beastmen and humans alike, is because they are desperate and starving. Yet we leave the bases untouched, wreaking havoc all over Eorzea instead of finishing what we started and take those people in as war prisoners. Partially that might help once the new leader of Garlemald decides to go forth with any invasion plans, but mainly it removes the problem of the constant Garlean threat everywhere. Less human refugees the towns have to deal with, less scared beastmen to summon their primals on us. But nope, we kinda just let them sit there and that's it.

    One thing I actually enjoyed about the HW scenario is that for the new primals, we did try to do something about the new Primals.
    Ravana was summoned because the Gnath were afraid of the dragons who encroached on their territory and hunted them from the air. So we went and had a talk with the dragons, got them to agree to leave the Gnath alone and voilà - one problem solved.
    Thordan made himself a Primal so there wasn't exactly much to do but defeat him, but we did help with the reformation of Ishgard which was direly needed to not birth someone like Thordan again.
    We helped getting Shiva to understand why what she had been doing was wrong (and then gave her a free pass to turn into a Primal as many times as she wanted anyway..xD But let's ignore that part) and are on the best way to solve the conflict between the dragons and the Ishgardians which should bear fruit at some point so no more people feel like they have to defend the dragons with their life (unless Nidhogg destroys all our hard work next patch, but who knows :3).
    (2)
    Last edited by Atoli; 01-01-2016 at 08:49 PM.

  4. #4
    Player
    Felis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atoli View Post
    Ascians are not the reason why they summoned the Primals, they merely taught the bestmen how to do it.
    The Ascians don't just teach, but also create the situations where the beastmen use what was teached to them.

    As an example:
    They worked together with the Allagans. The Allagans went on a dragon hunt, killed Bahamut and captured Tiamat.
    And the Ascians teached the Allagans how to capture primals and teached Tiamat how to bring back her dead lover as a primal. The rest is history.
    (3)
    Last edited by Felis; 01-01-2016 at 09:04 PM.

  5. #5
    Player
    Atoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Felis View Post
    The Ascians don't just teach, but also create the situations where the beastmen use what was teached to them.
    Yeah, they stir a bit of chaos. But honestly, at this point, with the aftermath of Dalamud and the like, their is enough chaos to have lots of conflicts even without them meddling all that much.
    And it's not like we have someone on the opposing side who actively tries to calm said chaos...

    Edit answer to your edit:
    See how the Ascians never did anything bad even in your example though? They just showed people a path they could take and they readily went down there, even though they always had the option to choose otherwise.
    That's partially why Thordan was so interesting to me for quite a while - because he planned on USING the Ascians, to take all they could offer and still not go down the way they wanted him to go. Sadly, he ended up doing it anyway. But yeah, you always have the option to ignore the Ascian's whispers. Except for the final fights of both 2.0 and 3.0, the Ascians never personally try to go against "the light" or her messenger. They just tell people "you can take the dark path too" and that's it.

    So I still see the problem in the circumstances that force people to make a decision between Zodiark's and Hydaelyn's way in the first place.
    Basically, if everyone was 100% happy, well-fed and so on, the Ascians could try to manipulate as much as they want - no one would bother following their teachings.
    (0)
    Last edited by Atoli; 01-02-2016 at 12:16 AM.