JP server player is calling us out. Step up, NA endgamers.

[Voltyblast]

Chances are, if you try to tell a person in DF Expert how to play a class now and days, 70% you are gonna be ignored, told to shut up, or get into an argument of why they're playstyle is better (though it could worst) by using some weird credentials. Like "I have 3 classes at 60 I know what I'm doing" or "I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW I HAVE OVER 50 CONFIRMED KILLS AND 100 YEARS OF EXPERIENCE AS SAID CLASS AND I KNOW IM PLAYING CORRECTLY".

That's unfortunately a true reality: I admit that I'm a "bit" like that too, especially since I have tanked in all mmorpgs so far and I consider myself a decent tanker in most games, however I cannot deny that I have a tiny bit of pride in me that doesn't allow others to judge me. But I do mean tiny because I DO listen to criticism and I don't simply bash the player back for giving me an advice. Worst case scenario, I usually ignore it and move on.

[Archaell]

You can't expect the "endgamers" to help others when the community tolerates willingly bad and ignorant players.

Until "I play for fun" players are reformed into "I play for fun while trying my best to learn" not many experienced players are going to bother trying to teach.

The harsh truth is that every single player is responsible for their own learning and until the community starts enforcing it the environment is not going to improve.

[F_Maximillian]

After having witnessed both sides I can safely say that the majority of people who take either side in this argument have become jaded by bad experiences and are unwilling to loosen up their stance on the matter at hand. I've seen new players who were offered advice (I myself have tried on many occasions) respond with at worst a full blown rant about how what they're doing is fine and how dare someone offer them any tips. I've also seen new players who struggled but were clearly trying and were met with a potent dose of venom from a "pro" in the party (who generally seem to be not much better than the one they're shredding).

I think in the beginning many people who start up want to learn but depending on their experiences in the leveling department come to hold firm to the philosophies of ignoring all advice and writing it off as shit talk from some person who thinks they're worth more or not bothering to offer tips they may have because they expect the person will attack them from trying. This is what most people cite as reasons for not wanting to learn or offer advice even in this thread alone. However it's this mentality of holding on to bad experiences and not wanting to take the chance to put a bad experience behind them that has left people so unwilling to learn or help.

Yet, if people don't get over it and keep trying things will only continue to decline. Even if one out of 10 people you try offering advice to take it with gratitude it's still worth it because that one person can then go on to use what help you gave them and eventually pass it on to the next person even if they have similar odds on getting people to hear them out. I think before more guides need to be written or more videos published or more party finder groups spring up we need to get to the core of the issue, mindsets. If the mindsets to teach or learn are not there you could open 100 party finder learning groups and only a fraction of them would be filled let alone function as intended.

If you know a role well and see someone struggling in a party finder group, why not try politely offering some advice? Even if you assume that person will respond back negatively what harm can words in a chatbox on a video game do to you? If you're new and met with harsh and unconstructive criticism, why not just treat it like you would any other time you run into a rude person? People don't run into one rude person in the world and assume everyone else is equally rude after all. If you're met with someone who genuinely tries to help you even if you feel like you're getting along fine there's no harm in trying, you may be surprised and learn something anyway.

[Kallera]

That is why it's not advantageous to work on building an endgame community anymore.

SE crashed the endgame community of ARR into a brick wall with 3.0. It's literally in shambles right now. We have received little to no sympathy from the non-raiding community for these terrible design choices. So, now that a lot of our friends have quit or transferred servers, it's up to us to fix what SE broke? Nah, no thanks. I already have enough irl stuff to stress about, the plight of some stranger who needs a Bis EX clear is the last thing I am thinking about when I go to log in.

What goes around comes around, I guess. I actually enjoy Alex was designed with a normal mode in mind ,and I am looking foward to the exploratory stuff with my fc, which has players of various skill. The lack of participation in endgame was something se wanted to address.

[Animarelic]

The biggest issue is that this game was not created for experienced MMO players to begin with, 2.0 was redesigned to draw in and make money off of Final Fantasy Fans first and foremost. The average FF Fan these days is someone who started around FF7 or 8, was a heavy console single RPG player and the lacks proper social skills to deal with criticism from someone they never met.

The second issue is that to cater to the Fans, the devs did what no other mmo has really done before, they made endgame "Optional". Whether it was PvE or PvP most mmo's constantly force you to work towards something. The story driven design and lack of conflict resolution aka decent PvP outlets removed the incentive to take on the challenges of tougher content. Because of this we have an overwhelmingly "Passive Player Base". This is the only mmo I've played where you can actually log on and do nothing ,not because you can't find a party but because "choosing" to do nothing is a valid option.

To be honest the worst thing they did in this "Story Driven" Game was give away the story so easily. The Raiding player base was definitely higher when we had to work to unlock the Coil Story. And despite people complaining they still tried because they had the "Incentive" and "Desire" to see the story. So as long as SE gives the story away and no incentive don't expect people to raid or care to.

[Kedo]

I don't agree. It's not my job to teach anyone. You want to become a better player? Do your research, practice on dummies, have a friend parse you. Make an effort FFS!
To quote a recent South Park episode which is very relevant to these forums, at least for the whiny cry baby bads:
"You're sad people are mean? I'm sorry the world isn't one big Liberal Arts college campus..."

[Azazua_azura]

@ animaralic

Umm...... nothing you said is correct. I started to play mmo with ff11, I was a slight fan of the games. And i'm an NES gen gamer and pretty much all games were solo. You know what I did, i treated people like i nowmally would offline. I try to be pleasent and understanding, And my first ff game was ff8. And in ff11 endgame was absolutely optional, I played ff11 for 7 years and only did end game for 3 mnths. I did otherstuff like craft, help other players, level other classes, also ff11 pvp wasn't big either.

so. ya...... kinda using baseless assuptions with nothing to back up with what you said.

[zosia]

What goes around comes around, I guess. I actually enjoy Alex was designed with a normal mode in mind ,and I am looking foward to the exploratory stuff with my fc, which has players of various skill. The lack of participation in endgame was something se wanted to address.

and they failed at it. The only increase in participation we have seen is in the story mode alex, which is hardly end game content. It's just another faceroll DF-able dungeon that you can complete by rolling your face across the keyboard. I have so little faith that this dev team can deliver after taking more time with 3.1 and delivering a much smaller patch than we all anticipated. Two dungeons? One trial? Pfft? I really hope sky hunts, which I think is a better term, pans out to be amazing because EVERYONE is feeling the weight of this content drought.

It's not the responsibility of good players to be altruistic and do what SE is getting paid to do. SE needs to incorporate motivating factors for more skilled players to play with less skilled players. SE needs to find a way to foster an end game community.

This captain Ahab content designed to destroy raid teams is more of our (skilled players) concern right now than trying to help Joe Casual get his Ex clear.

[Azazua_azura]

I don't agree. It's not my job to teach anyone. You want to become a better player? Do your research, practice on dummies, have a friend parse you. Make an effort FFS!
To quote a recent South Park episode which is very relevant to these forums, at least for the whiny cry baby bads:
"You're sad people are mean? I'm sorry the world isn't one big Liberal Arts college campus..."

part of the mmo experience is infact teaching others, research only goes so far and parses have been knwn to be inaccurate. All in all we need lewss people like you, as its because people like you ruined the mmo community, and reason i play on tonberry.

and for your advice to "git gud" my advice is to grow up.

[Animarelic]

@Azazua Nothing you said contradicts what I spoke of. Also the Raid population is down because there is no reason to do it. Checked your lodestone you are a lv 50 with no sense of endgame. Even in FFXI I have more experience than what you listed. If you have another character that actually has some experience I'd be more open to debate with you but, currently you are the exact type of gamer i'm talking about. A FF Fan not an experienced MMO player. When i say experienced I mean someone who actually has a track record of playing multiple mmos for years not a franchise they followed out of loyalty.