Lets nerf WAR :D

[OPneedNerfs]

PLD/DRK can work. Take a nin for slashing/vuln debuff oh and can't MCH reduce raid wide damage and have a physical debuff? DRG battle lit?? AST balance/ bole and or royal road, that's raid wide right? Isn't it 10% reduce damage? SCH galv/ Aldo crit.

Basically what I'm saying is that all jobs are effective and that you shouldn't just think
PLD or DRK/War is the only option. All jobs have utility,and there is no set in stone perfect raid group, unless it's pure bias.

SE if you are reading this don't take this thread seriously, people only want to copy others because they lack creativity and only see in black and white.

So is your progression raiding group using PLD+DRK as tanks? If not, why? If so, how far into Alex Savage has your group cleared with PLD+DRK and how long has it been since your group started doing Alex Savage? Is your group sufficiently geared up to around i200 now? If not, are you having troubles/issues with the setup?

I'm sorry, I can't take anyone seriously when they simply write off others' concerns when they haven't proven anything other than giving lip service. If you want to join in a discussion, you have to bring your own points that are valid either through experience or data/numbers.

It's more of a pure bias when groups who refuse to use PLD+DRK go around saying they're just as effective as PLD/DRK+WAR just like when some were saying AST +WHM/SCH was a fine combination pre-buffs when they themselves were using SCH+WHM combinations.

At this point, anyone saying there isn't a problem with the tanks is pretty much lying/delusional or simply don't understand the game/situation well enough. Anyone worth their salt would agree that some slight tweaks for the tanks are needed, much like how anyone worth their salt agreed that AST needed tweaks to be more balanced as a healer.

Oh and a final note, those things you mentioned aren't mutually exclusive to having a WAR in the group. Bringing a WAR would not suddenly take away from NIN/MCH/DRG/AST/SCH being in the group, in fact, especially for the NIN's case, it would be a DPS increase for the group due to the ability to use Aeolian Edge (320 Potency) more often which is a DPS increase compared to Dancing Edge (260 Potency).

This only because you have four DPS slots. So it's not a big problem to have that kind of 'mandatory' synergy. As in if you have a BRD/MCH you essentially need a DRG or you're making shit real hard. And every serious prog group needs a MCH/BRD. Foe req isn't as important in the grand scheme of things, though you can't achieve maximum potential without it.

To be honest NIN and DRG completely bullied MNK out of a spot (due to DRK having INT down). I mean the derlirium slash issue did actually exclude MNKs from the first few weeks. After time passed and the buffs (which weren't crazy, super reasonable number tuning) were implemented the distance wasn't so bad anymore. But it was not unlike the situation you describe. Regardless some set-ups are just plain superior regardless of balancing, this will always be the case. The only thing that varies is by how much (e.g. Fore req not as important and piercing down and so on); which I agree, WARs are ahead by a bit too much.

I wouldn't say that the problem with MNKs being bullied out of a spot was completely due to NIN and DRG. If PLD was as optimal for use in Alex Savage since the beginning, I'm sure people would've brought MNKs for their INT down along with their better personal DPS. It was also good that they tweaked MNK's numbers so that people would take MNKs more over NINs.

That's the beauty of the current state of DPS balance which I would say is very close to ideal. Where any of the DPS jobs, save for maybe BRD/MCH during progression, can be replaced by another DPS job and still be optimal.

[RapBreon]

I wouldn't say that the problem with MNKs being bullied out of a spot was completely due to NIN and DRG. If PLD was as optimal for use in Alex Savage since the beginning, I'm sure people would've brought MNKs for their INT down along with their better personal DPS. It was also good that they tweaked MNK's numbers so that people would take MNKs more over NINs.

That's the beauty of the current state of DPS balance which I would say is very close to ideal. Where any of the DPS jobs, save for maybe BRD/MCH during progression, can be replaced by another DPS job and still be optimal.

It still doesn't address the point that MCH/BRD can't be optimal without a DRG. Not a tiny bit either; a good 10% of their DPS.

This game has class dependencies intentionally. As I said, it's the size of the gap between them that matters. Before the buffs their personal DPS was less-than-or-on-par with Dragoon and offered nothing. If DRK couldn't apply INT down it would be NINs benched and complaining. Or groups just toughing out the extra damage, like they do now; which is probably more likely (DPS checks being king). Now that it's weeks in and MNK got buffed its not a big deal anymore.

Melee balance is very good though.

[NFaelivrin]

But, you know. Paladin Princess Snowflakes.

You forgot that WARs also have literally bottomless TP, making them practically resourceless, kinda like BLM, except without the complex stance switching resource management BLM has. Imagine if BLM had equal single target DPS to dragoon and didn't need foe's req and could just spam its astral fire rotation all day. That's Warrior for other tanks.

[OPneedNerfs]

It still doesn't address the point that MCH/BRD can't be optimal without a DRG. Not a tiny bit either; a good 10% of their DPS.

This game has class dependencies intentionally. As I said, it's the size of the gap between them that matters. Before the buffs their personal DPS was less-than-or-on-par with Dragoon and offered nothing. If DRK couldn't apply INT down it would be NINs benched and complaining. Or groups just toughing out the extra damage, like they do now. Now that it's weeks in and MNK got buffed its not a big deal anymore.

Melee balance is very good though.

DRG is just in a very good spot right now, due to Battle Litany being a raid-wide crit buff which added on to the fact that they get a piercing debuff, it makes it hard not to bring a DRG.

If we take a normal 8-man composition with 4 DPS slots open, a BRD/MCH is needed for progression mainly for MP/TP regeneration due to lower ilvl gear when starting out in progression leading to a huge sap in MP/TP resources. Then in order to counteract the innate DPS loss of bringing a BRD/MCH, a DRG is required to offset that so that makes up 2 of the spots.

The balance between casters and melees come into play at this point. It's really nicely done at this point because for a caster to be on-par with a melee DPS on single targets, they need either a MCH/BRD for their magic-damage debuff which makes them a viable choice to bring along instead of a BRD/MCH + DRG + 2 melee composition otherwise.

And as progression groups start gearing up and grasping the fights better, they eventually could drop the BRD/MCH and go for an additional melee or caster although even then, it's still a close overall DPS due to MCH/BRD providing the magic-damage debuffs.

Also, because stacking multiple of the same jobs aren't as beneficial, job diversity is almost always guaranteed as it outweighs any potential DPS differences provided by having a certain combination.

The problem comes with the current situation with tanks where bringing 2 Warriors which is supposedly detrimental to the group due to LB gauge penalty is still considered a possibly better option than bringing a different tank. But, that is all pretty much history as changes are coming in 3.1 which will hopefully address that issue.

[RapBreon]

DRG is just in a very good spot right now, due to Battle Litany being a raid-wide crit buff which added on to the fact that they get a piercing debuff, it makes it hard not to bring a DRG.

If we take a normal 8-man composition with 4 DPS slots open, a BRD/MCH is needed for progression mainly for MP/TP regeneration due to lower ilvl gear when starting out in progression leading to a huge sap in MP/TP resources. Then in order to counteract the innate DPS loss of bringing a BRD/MCH, a DRG is required to offset that so that makes up 2 of the spots.

Exactly, this is essentially 'mandatory synergy'. I said this earlier; the reason its not complained about so much is because you have four DPS slots instead of two. It exists in the case of tanks, that is WAR. Same balance issue, just compounded by the smaller amount of spots.

Taking WAR out of a team only makes NIN mandatory ultimately. The problem definitely impacts more than just the Tanks. I think the problem is all the tanks do the same damage type; which makes WAR undisputed king. I'm not sure if spreading the damages types would help however. You would just force other set-ups to be optimal; I guess that's the problem with having class dependencies. I do enjoy the design choice however, I feel obligated to keep my debuff up for my MCH even in times where I'm not sure I'd want too.

And as progression groups start gearing up and grasping the fights better, they eventually could drop the BRD/MCH and go for an additional melee or caster although even then, it's still a close overall DPS due to MCH/BRD providing the magic-damage debuffs.

Also, because stacking multiple of the same jobs aren't as beneficial, job diversity is almost always guaranteed as it outweighs any potential DPS differences provided by having a certain combination.

The problem comes with the current situation with tanks where bringing 2 Warriors which is supposedly detrimental to the group due to LB gauge penalty is still considered a possibly better option than bringing a different tank. But, that is all pretty much history as changes are coming in 3.1 which will hopefully address that issue.

I agree that 2 WARs would represents a very serious issue. Class stacking in general is a pretty bad outcome. Though I'm not sure if two WARS outweigh the LB gauge penalty, I feel like if it were, we'd have seen it more in the earlier weeks. Being said I haven't looked into overly, so you could be right.

As for balance outside of early progression? I personally don't care; primarily because once you begin to over-gear those imbalances transition from 'progression stopping' to just 'git gud'.

[Jhett_Magnum]

So is your progression raiding group using PLD+DRK as tanks? If not, why? If so, how far into Alex Savage has your group cleared with PLD+DRK and how long has it been since your group started doing Alex Savage? Is your group sufficiently geared up to around i200 now? If not, are you having troubles/issues with the setup?

http://youtu.be/jC7VnSY702s

Like I said think outside the box like this group did.

[kensatsu]

That's the problem, in the current Raid you can use 2 war, it's possible,
but it was not possible before. on T9 last tank buster kill the war, on T13 you can't homlang 4th or 5th akh morn it kill the war,
The problem is also the heavy dps check it make no room for pld,
it's designed to have Dark/War comp, PLD need to get more stuffed or get a more stuffed group to get in A4S. Solution : Up the paladin or people choose Dark/War,
Nerfing the War if Se do that , they have to nerf also Dark and nerf the raid dps check...

[Violette]

Exactly, this is essentially 'mandatory synergy'. I said this earlier; the reason its not complained about so much is because you have four DPS slots instead of two. It exists in the case of tanks, that is WAR. Same balance issue, just compounded by the smaller amount of spots.

Not to mention if you take a paladin (in this raid cycle), you have to take a monk. That's mandatory for progression with royal pentacle's magic damage. And Hypercompressed. And cascade. SE didn't learn anything from T13 and how monks were mandatory there.

[OPneedNerfs]

http://youtu.be/jC7VnSY702s
Go ahead and look at the video date I'll wait.
Like I said think outside the box like this group did.

I like your condescending tone when you're sooo wrong.

When were groups clearing A1S again? Oh right, July 21st 2015.

Kindly remind everyone how far between that and your video of August 13 is. Go on, we'll wait.

Now if you're gonna invalidate the 3 extra weeks of esoterics gear, there's really nothing to be said other than you're ignorant.

[Aurelinaus]

Not to mention if you take a paladin (in this raid cycle), you have to take a monk. That's mandatory for progression with royal pentacle's magic damage. And Hypercompressed. And cascade. SE didn't learn anything from T13 and how monks were mandatory there.

Monks weren't mandatory they made life a lot easier bringing one along, but to say they were mandatory is just not true.