Lets nerf WAR :D

[RapBreon]

I wouldn't say that the problem with MNKs being bullied out of a spot was completely due to NIN and DRG. If PLD was as optimal for use in Alex Savage since the beginning, I'm sure people would've brought MNKs for their INT down along with their better personal DPS. It was also good that they tweaked MNK's numbers so that people would take MNKs more over NINs.

That's the beauty of the current state of DPS balance which I would say is very close to ideal. Where any of the DPS jobs, save for maybe BRD/MCH during progression, can be replaced by another DPS job and still be optimal.

It still doesn't address the point that MCH/BRD can't be optimal without a DRG. Not a tiny bit either; a good 10% of their DPS.

This game has class dependencies intentionally. As I said, it's the size of the gap between them that matters. Before the buffs their personal DPS was less-than-or-on-par with Dragoon and offered nothing. If DRK couldn't apply INT down it would be NINs benched and complaining. Or groups just toughing out the extra damage, like they do now; which is probably more likely (DPS checks being king). Now that it's weeks in and MNK got buffed its not a big deal anymore.

Melee balance is very good though.

[OPneedNerfs]

It still doesn't address the point that MCH/BRD can't be optimal without a DRG. Not a tiny bit either; a good 10% of their DPS.

This game has class dependencies intentionally. As I said, it's the size of the gap between them that matters. Before the buffs their personal DPS was less-than-or-on-par with Dragoon and offered nothing. If DRK couldn't apply INT down it would be NINs benched and complaining. Or groups just toughing out the extra damage, like they do now. Now that it's weeks in and MNK got buffed its not a big deal anymore.

Melee balance is very good though.

DRG is just in a very good spot right now, due to Battle Litany being a raid-wide crit buff which added on to the fact that they get a piercing debuff, it makes it hard not to bring a DRG.

If we take a normal 8-man composition with 4 DPS slots open, a BRD/MCH is needed for progression mainly for MP/TP regeneration due to lower ilvl gear when starting out in progression leading to a huge sap in MP/TP resources. Then in order to counteract the innate DPS loss of bringing a BRD/MCH, a DRG is required to offset that so that makes up 2 of the spots.

The balance between casters and melees come into play at this point. It's really nicely done at this point because for a caster to be on-par with a melee DPS on single targets, they need either a MCH/BRD for their magic-damage debuff which makes them a viable choice to bring along instead of a BRD/MCH + DRG + 2 melee composition otherwise.

And as progression groups start gearing up and grasping the fights better, they eventually could drop the BRD/MCH and go for an additional melee or caster although even then, it's still a close overall DPS due to MCH/BRD providing the magic-damage debuffs.

Also, because stacking multiple of the same jobs aren't as beneficial, job diversity is almost always guaranteed as it outweighs any potential DPS differences provided by having a certain combination.

The problem comes with the current situation with tanks where bringing 2 Warriors which is supposedly detrimental to the group due to LB gauge penalty is still considered a possibly better option than bringing a different tank. But, that is all pretty much history as changes are coming in 3.1 which will hopefully address that issue.

[RapBreon]

DRG is just in a very good spot right now, due to Battle Litany being a raid-wide crit buff which added on to the fact that they get a piercing debuff, it makes it hard not to bring a DRG.

If we take a normal 8-man composition with 4 DPS slots open, a BRD/MCH is needed for progression mainly for MP/TP regeneration due to lower ilvl gear when starting out in progression leading to a huge sap in MP/TP resources. Then in order to counteract the innate DPS loss of bringing a BRD/MCH, a DRG is required to offset that so that makes up 2 of the spots.

Exactly, this is essentially 'mandatory synergy'. I said this earlier; the reason its not complained about so much is because you have four DPS slots instead of two. It exists in the case of tanks, that is WAR. Same balance issue, just compounded by the smaller amount of spots.

Taking WAR out of a team only makes NIN mandatory ultimately. The problem definitely impacts more than just the Tanks. I think the problem is all the tanks do the same damage type; which makes WAR undisputed king. I'm not sure if spreading the damages types would help however. You would just force other set-ups to be optimal; I guess that's the problem with having class dependencies. I do enjoy the design choice however, I feel obligated to keep my debuff up for my MCH even in times where I'm not sure I'd want too.

And as progression groups start gearing up and grasping the fights better, they eventually could drop the BRD/MCH and go for an additional melee or caster although even then, it's still a close overall DPS due to MCH/BRD providing the magic-damage debuffs.

Also, because stacking multiple of the same jobs aren't as beneficial, job diversity is almost always guaranteed as it outweighs any potential DPS differences provided by having a certain combination.

The problem comes with the current situation with tanks where bringing 2 Warriors which is supposedly detrimental to the group due to LB gauge penalty is still considered a possibly better option than bringing a different tank. But, that is all pretty much history as changes are coming in 3.1 which will hopefully address that issue.

I agree that 2 WARs would represents a very serious issue. Class stacking in general is a pretty bad outcome. Though I'm not sure if two WARS outweigh the LB gauge penalty, I feel like if it were, we'd have seen it more in the earlier weeks. Being said I haven't looked into overly, so you could be right.

As for balance outside of early progression? I personally don't care; primarily because once you begin to over-gear those imbalances transition from 'progression stopping' to just 'git gud'.

[kensatsu]

That's the problem, in the current Raid you can use 2 war, it's possible,
but it was not possible before. on T9 last tank buster kill the war, on T13 you can't homlang 4th or 5th akh morn it kill the war,
The problem is also the heavy dps check it make no room for pld,
it's designed to have Dark/War comp, PLD need to get more stuffed or get a more stuffed group to get in A4S. Solution : Up the paladin or people choose Dark/War,
Nerfing the War if Se do that , they have to nerf also Dark and nerf the raid dps check...

[Violette]

Exactly, this is essentially 'mandatory synergy'. I said this earlier; the reason its not complained about so much is because you have four DPS slots instead of two. It exists in the case of tanks, that is WAR. Same balance issue, just compounded by the smaller amount of spots.

Not to mention if you take a paladin (in this raid cycle), you have to take a monk. That's mandatory for progression with royal pentacle's magic damage. And Hypercompressed. And cascade. SE didn't learn anything from T13 and how monks were mandatory there.

[Aurelinaus]

Not to mention if you take a paladin (in this raid cycle), you have to take a monk. That's mandatory for progression with royal pentacle's magic damage. And Hypercompressed. And cascade. SE didn't learn anything from T13 and how monks were mandatory there.

Monks weren't mandatory they made life a lot easier bringing one along, but to say they were mandatory is just not true.

[Violette]

Monks weren't mandatory they made life a lot easier bringing one along, but to say they were mandatory is just not true.

Every time someone tells me "monk's weren't mandatory for T13", I feel that they weren't part of the early progression.

In the heavy magic damage fight of T13, the 10% int down was indispensable. Not taking one meant you needed 10% more health all round, basically. Monk's were also the highest damage at the time, so not taking one was 10% more healing you had to deal with, and more people dying early on because they didn't have the health, and more damage you had to make up across the raid. There's a reason Dark Knight's have int down as well.