The Real Problem with Parsers

[Aiselia]

The whole thing holding up anyone from taking your point too seriously is that you refuse to give even a vague indication of what that acceptable amount is.

No, I'm pretty sure the whole thing holding up anyone from taking my point too seriously is that they refuse to actually read what my points are, and then lump me in with their perceived notion of the anti-parser crowd. What I think is an acceptable amount of harassment is irrelevant because that amount is subjective.

But if you insist, it's zero. No amount of harassment is or should be acceptable. If you just accept it happening because "people can be jerks", you're part of the problem.

First they came for the low DPS, and I did not speak out because I did not have low DPS.
Then they came for the sub-optimally geared, and I did not speak out, because I used BiS.
Then they came for the non-potion-drinkers, and I did not speak out, because I used HQ Draconians.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

However, since I've already stated (repeatedly) that personal parsers give all the objective benefits of a party parser while still avoiding people being able to harass others over their DPS because they still shouldn't be able to see it as well as sidestepping potential objective detriments that a party-parser would bring (PS3 limits, for example), and still nobody has managed to state an objective benefit of having a party parser over a personal parser, what I think is or isn't acceptable is irrelevant, because I don't support having party parsers as much as I support having personal parsers with optional sharing.

Exactly who are you to judge whether the community is mature enough?

I'm someone who can read this thread and notices the people who aren't even acting mature in discussions ABOUT parsers, not even USING them. It's hard to consider the community to be mature enough when people start insulting others over their low DPS without even having grouped with them.

If the community isn't going to be a jerk to you about it, why would it bother you?

Because I'm not egocentric enough to think that because something won't affect me, it's okay to ignore it, I guess.

[Malevicton]

First they came for the low DPS, and I did not speak out because I did not have low DPS.
Then they came for the sub-optimally geared, and I did not speak out, because I used BiS.
Then they came for the non-potion-drinkers, and I did not speak out, because I used HQ Draconians.
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak for me.

Did you seriously just do this? C'mon dude...

Anyways, I'll give an actual comment towards personal parsers since that's not a bad point, and is commonly brought up. While I'd appreciate them in the abstract, it's just no longer practical. I'd be 100% on board if they had been available at launch, but if people really want to see your numbers, they can see them. Hiding your dps is just no longer an option. While it might have been a good option, it's just no do-able anymore.

[Gorlioliolio]

If you are pro-parser can you just accept the fact that people will be jerks regardless?

There are people in this game that on purpose make 7/8 or 23/24 man groups just to mess with the 1 person that isn't in their FC. While these people should be suspended or banned or whatever should the developers stop allowing pre-made groups because there is the potential for this kind of abuse? Even though the vast majority of 7/8 pre-mades are just because they couldn't find a last person and said screw it let's just DF someone?

Or are you going to argue like you have countless times before that a perfectly good analogy has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I will pre-emptively show the similarities for you

Devs make tool, small amount of people are a-holes with tool. Devs ban a-holes. Tool helps everyone else.

Replace tool with either parsers or DF you get the same result.

state an objective benefit of having a party parser over a personal parser

Other people can't help you if they can't tell what you are doing wrong, and some people are unwilling to help themselves.

[Aiselia]

I'd be 100% on board if they had been available at launch, but if people really want to see your numbers, they can see them. Hiding your dps is just no longer an option. While it might have been a good option, it's just no do-able anymore.

However, a personal parser allows for one to be able to see their own output but allows SE to maintain their (actual) current stance that they know people use them but shouldn't bring them up.

But you're right. Hiding your DPS isn't an option if someone already has a parser.

So then, why are party parsers needed? A personal parser gives you information about yourself and presumably will use less resources than a full party one, making it easier to fit in for PS3 players. What more relevant information will a party parser give you that a personal one won't?

Or are you going to argue like you have countless times before that a perfectly good analogy has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

No, I'm going to argue like I have countless times that scale of potential abuse is important. The objective benefits of making a premade outweigh the detriments.

Other people can't help you if they can't tell what you are doing wrong, and some people are unwilling to help themselves.

Continue to the end of what you quoted where I mentioned optional sharing. This can either be done through my idea of having a share button that shares the parse of the last fight (because presumably you'd bring it up after a wipe or when you notice things dying slowly) to a single person or the party depending on your choice, or what someone else brought up of having options of whether you make it public, private, or just plain off.

So, again, what objective benefits are there to a party parser over a personal one with optional sharing?

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

However, since I've already stated (repeatedly) that personal parsers give all the objective benefits of a party parser while still avoiding people being able to harass others over their DPS because they still shouldn't be able to see it as well as sidestepping potential objective detriments that a party-parser would bring (PS3 limits, for example), and still nobody has managed to state an objective benefit of having a party parser over a personal parser, what I think is or isn't acceptable is irrelevant, because I don't support having party parsers as much as I support having personal parsers with optional sharing.

Since you've brought this up again, here is what I asked you on page 40 (39? 41? not sure)

Some guy who posted before you made the exact opposite of it. So by the statement of "the kind of treatment SE wants to avoid", you could make the same claim about the contrary.

So here's a situation where a parser may or may not come in handy:
There's a DPS check mechanic for a certain encounter, your party keeps wiping on it. Why, who and/or how?

I could have answered the objective benefit for you if you actually answered that, but someone else did it for you. But you didn't pay any attention to it from the looks of it.

What are the objective benefits? Achieving the common goal for the majority of the group. DPS checks are the main causes for failures when every one performs their role up to par. Meaning; no deaths, no agro loss, mechanics handled properly. Now what if the DPS checks aren't met and there's this one person doing less than the tanks when it comes to damage? There are some options here:
1) Continue and keep failing, meaning you'd waste time for the entire party
2) Kick the weakest link and take your chances on getting someone who can deal some proper damage
3) Disband the group completely, even if 7 out of 8 actually has a standing chance of clearing the encounter

If you can't comprehend the situation: You got 6 sandwiches, 7 people to feed. 1 of them doesn't work while the remaining 6 work their asses off for a common goal. Who does not get a sandwich?

This does not only apply to damage. Healing and tank cooldown uses apply. You got tanks who claim they're using cooldowns, but not till they're dead. You got healers who claim they're doing their best, but have the healing output of a level 30 white mage. It helps entire groups identify problems within a group. Yes, there'll be victems when this happens, but rather than looking at the negative, look at the positive. If you do get removed from a group because you're under performing, make use of that parser and/or reach out to others for advice and ask what their damage output is (for DPS cases). If someone's just going to throw a tantrum because they got kicked and do not admit they're doing poorly even if numbers state otherwise. You'd be catering to these particular kind of jerks. Either way, even if you're "anti-jerk", you'll never win any argument as the contrary of what your statements are that supports your stance is also true.

As for this:

I'm someone who can read this thread and notices the people who aren't even acting mature in discussions ABOUT parsers, not even USING them. It's hard to consider the community to be mature enough when people start insulting others over their low DPS without even having grouped with them.

So you've experienced a certain behaviour. Out of how many posts would this be? If the posters you witness where people are not being mature is a mere 0,1%, does that outweigh the remaining 99,9%? Does the remaining 99,9% have to cater to the 0,1% that's being immature? Or whatever number you can think of. However, you made a statement before not to lump you together with the anti-parser group. Why are you lumping entire communities to the jerk-group?

[Malevicton]

However, a personal parser allows for one to be able to see their own output but allows SE to maintain their (actual) current stance that they know people use them but shouldn't bring them up.

But their position is that people shouldn't be bringing them up because it's 3rd party software, not because bringing up dps is just inherently bad. Harassing people would still be against ToS.

But you're right. Hiding your DPS isn't an option if someone already has a parser.

So then, why are party parsers needed? A personal parser gives you information about yourself and presumably will use less resources than a full party one, making it easier to fit in for PS3 players. What more relevant information will a party parser give you that a personal one won't?

This game's mechanics require coordination. Like it or not, when you're doing group content you aren't really 4/8 individuals who happen to be in the same place. You're 1 group that's comprised of 4/8 pieces, which is an important distinction. There are many times where it's helpful to know what you're group is up to.

No, I'm going to argue like I have countless times that scale of potential abuse is important. The objective benefits of making a premade outweigh the detriments.

As myself and others have said, we don't really need to guess. Parsers have been a thing in many MMOs. Their abuse is pretty rare.

[Aiselia]

What are the objective benefits?

Did you miss the "optional sharing" part at the end? Meaning people have the choice whether or not others see it? Meaning if you wipe purely because of a DPS check, asking for shares of parses would cover that?

Or to respond to the tank/healers, if the tank is dropping like a rock, ask for their share for cooldown uses, or if the tank is doing fine but not getting heals, ask for the healing share.

If somebody refuses to share, it suggests that they recognize that they may have issues but will refuse to take your help into consideration because they won't help you help them. That saves you time talking to a wall. And, I mean, if three out of four DPS share and they're all fine, and the fourth refuses to share, it's a pretty safe bet where the problem lies. If they're capable of recognizing that they're underperforming and that they're embarrassed to share because of that, then a stranger telling them they're bad isn't going to do anything more helpful.

Why are you lumping entire communities to the jerk-group?

I'm not. I've never said that the entire pro-parser side is represented by those people. I have more respect for Viridiana than I have for many people on both sides of the fence, honestly.

But their position is that people shouldn't be bringing them up because it's 3rd party software, not because bringing up dps is just inherently bad. Harassing people would still be against ToS.

Yes, and if they put in a personal parser and people use third-party parsers to see the rest of their group, it'd still be third-party software. What's your point?

There are many times where it's helpful to know what you're group is up to.

Which a personal parser with optional sharing can accomplish, especially with the other person's suggestion that you could optionally make it public.

[Gorlioliolio]

So, again, what objective benefits are there to a party parser over a personal one with optional sharing?

Other people can't help you if they can't tell what you are doing wrong, and some people are unwilling to help themselves.

Oh hey look I quoted myself on that one, the people who are unwilling to help themselves are the ones who turn off their parses. If you are that bad (unless terribly undergeared, which no one should really punish someone for as we have all been there) then I don't want you in my group because you are wasting 4 peoples time (once again your wasting your own time too)

If somebody refuses to share, it suggests that they recognize that they may have issues but will refuse to take your help into consideration because they won't help you help them. That saves you time talking to a wall. And, I mean, if three out of four DPS share and they're all fine, and the fourth refuses to share, it's a pretty safe bet where the problem lies. If they're capable of recognizing that they're underperforming and that they're embarrassed to share because of that, then a stranger telling them they're bad isn't going to do anything more helpful.

I'm unsure if you are going against your own stance here where you seem to be vehemently against kicking people for poor dps. Or are you just saying the group should vote abandon at that point and waste 8 peoples time instead of kicking the 1 person?

Basically if we all know the one persons poor dps is causing problems then what good does being able to hide your dps serve?

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Did you miss the "optional sharing" part at the end? Meaning people have the choice whether or not others see it? Meaning if you wipe purely because of a DPS check, asking for shares of parses would cover that?

Or to respond to the tank/healers, if the tank is dropping like a rock, ask for their share for cooldown uses, or if the tank is doing fine but not getting heals, ask for the healing share.

If somebody refuses to share, it suggests that they recognize that they may have issues but will refuse to take your help into consideration because they won't help you help them. That saves you time talking to a wall. And, I mean, if three out of four DPS share and they're all fine, and the fourth refuses to share, it's a pretty safe bet where the problem lies. If they're capable of recognizing that they're underperforming and that they're embarrassed to share because of that, then a stranger telling them they're bad isn't going to do anything more helpful.

And this brings us back to the situation where the community has to cater to the specific "jerk" who don't want to improve. So what is the added value of having optional sharing or hiding feature? If they have nothing to hide, they wouldn't be afraid to share. If they're afraid to share for people to find out but don't want to improve, you'd get that particular jerk you mentioned yourself. If he or she doesn't get kicked for weighing the party down, sharing or not sharing the data, this brings us back to the whole "catering to the jerk" issue.

It doesn't suggest anything what a particular person wants. They could simply not be aware of such feature and get kicked because the party thinks he/she's hiding something. If anything, personal parsers would cause far more problems than public parsers:
Hiding your data when requested
Fabricating your data

[Aiselia]

the people who are unwilling to help themselves are the ones who turn off their parses.

Right, and with personal parsers with optional sharing, you see immediately who wants to hide their DPS so you get a better idea of how receptive they are to criticism. Sounds like a benefit to personal parsers with optional sharing, to me. You get a better idea of whether the person will be willing to listen to criticism or if they'll just ignore what you say anyways.

I'm unsure if you are going against your own stance here where you seem to be vehemently against kicking people for poor dps. Or are you just saying the group should vote abandon at that point and waste 8 peoples time instead of kicking the 1 person?

I have, at points, said that making a run take longer and outright making it impossible are different situations. I am against kicking people just for making a run take a bit longer. I'm not against kicking people making it impossible to complete it. And that applies to both DPS and other mechanics, and all three roles, tank, healer, and DPS.

if we all know the one persons poor dps is causing problems then what good does being able to hide your dps serve?

If you all know that the one person's poor DPS is causing problems, then what good does knowing their exact numbers serve?

So what is the added value of having optional sharing or hiding feature?

For runs where their DPS doesn't matter to anything but taking a few minutes longer, it's not particularly pressing to know their DPS.

They could simply not be aware of such feature and get kicked because the party thinks he/she's hiding something.

What's stopping them from asking how to share it?

Hiding your data when requested

Shows lack of desire to improve because they're potentially embarrassed over their numbers. Saves you time trying to help someone get better when they don't want it.

Fabricating your data

Optional. Sharing. Why would anybody ask for people to just state their numbers if sharing is built in to the parser?

Also, I notice that people skim over the PS3 limitations thing. What's your opinion on what needs to be removed for parsers if they couldn't even add in a TP bar without removing the party bonus to another window?