The Real Problem with Parsers

[JackFross]

I can definitely see the case for public parsers, with the problems you outlined. I just have seen/witnessed SE's official stance on parsing programs to be that, while they're against the ToS, they don't REALLY police it too tightly unless you start to be a dick about it. When you start excluding people from content because they're doing low dps, you're being a dick - you're using information gleaned from a rule-breaking program to harass another player.

That's not cool.

And that's the primary reason I don't really want to see something like a public parser implemented. It would essentially legalize bullying another member because they're not pulling their weight. Do you honestly think the majority of the playerbase is going to say "Oh, try and do better next time" and explain/help that person learn the fight and improve? I'm fairly sure 90% of people would just drop the dude and pick up someone who already knows the fight and can clear it. People being able to see low DPS numbers in trials would cause so many vote kicks.

[[ Before anyone says "make a learning PF!!!" --- why should these people NOT be allowed to solo-queue in DF for old-as-dirt content and run it without knowing jack shit of how it works? Should they always be required to make a PF with people on their server to clear storyline encounters just so they can reach 60 and play the new stuff? That seems silly to suggest. ]]

Yeah, this is an unbased fear because parsers exist and it hasn't happened, but... if you do that RIGHT NOW, and are reported for harassment, you can get in MAJOR trouble if the person mentions you parsed and kicked them for low performance. :T If a parser is implemented in-game, that rule would be so gray and it just wouldn't breed a very... cohesive/friendly environment. And that's my issue with it.


I see both sides of the argument.

On the one hand, we do need an official way of measuring DPS so players who don't have access to parsing programs can self-evaluate and improve. This is good.

On the other hand, introducing a means of measuring DPS could essentially legalize bullying players who aren't optimal. This is bad.

I'm not sure which side is more important. A friendly, accepting community or a community with higher parity in the playerbase. Personally, I love the friendly atmosphere of the server I play on. It's a more casual place, with a handful of hardcore/elite players (whom I generally enlist to run important content with me). I love playing with the people in my free company, even if they're not out there pushing top DPS numbers and breaking records. It's a video game and it's designed for people to have fun playing it. I really can't agree that it's fair for us to dictate HOW someone should play the game, even if that HOW they are CURRENTLY playing it is "wrong" due to the meta that YOU play by.



Yes, there is one optimal rotation for Dragoon. However, no, that does not mean there is only one way to play Dragoon.

That's basically my whole point I'm making, here, lol.

[Malevicton]

And that's the primary reason I don't really want to see something like a public parser implemented. It would essentially legalize bullying another member because they're not pulling their weight. Do you honestly think the majority of the playerbase is going to say "Oh, try and do better next time" and explain/help that person learn the fight and improve? I'm fairly sure 90% of people would just drop the dude and pick up someone who already knows the fight and can clear it. People being able to see low DPS numbers in trials would cause so many vote kicks.

First of all allowing parsers does not mean allowing harassment. It would absolutely not "legalize bullying" in any way shape or form. I know you late go on to say a parser would make the rules gray... but how so?

Even if it somehow did... The thing is, and sorry that I'm repeating myself a bit here, that this is not a hypothetical fear. Other MMOs have parsers, and this situation does not happen. We don't need to guess or assume what players would do, because these environments have existed now for well over a decade. We can draw on a huge well of experience, and that well of experience says that those situations are extreme outliers. They exist, but they're extremely rare. So no offense, but what you're "fairly sure 90% of people" would suddenly start doing is a bit paranoid. There is no evidence that people would change at all, and in fact there's a decent amount of evidence that that wouldn't be the case.

And really the people that care enough to do that will have already downloaded a parser by now and have already been doing it. The introduction of a parser will not make people suddenly start acting that way. MMO history points to the exact opposite. Most people will continue not caring whatsoever as long as you aren't getting them killed. At worst you might get a few more eyerolls in your direction.

If you're playing around casual players they aren't going to magically become elitist bullies because they looked at a parser. There is absolutely no evidence that that will happen. To be blunt, it's baseless fearmongering to think that the community as a whole will become worse because of a parser.

[RiceisNice]

Yes, there is one optimal rotation for Dragoon. However, no, that does not mean there is only one way to play Dragoon.

And there lies the difference between playing sub-optimally and deliberately playing bad because you don't care. The DRG could be both missing positional or randomly using their skills (not comboing), and as much as you can say "you're doing the wrong skills", you can't objectify or quantify that information without numbers. And this becomes frustrating when at least everyone in the party to know their class (or at least, not be carried) because even Buddha would not have the patience or acceptance for people who willingly (or willfully ignorantly) expect to do less spamming their 1-2-3 combo and still stay in the party. Especially if it's a farming one (where I'd be extremely anal about it, especially if you expect to have the same right to roll on the drops)

[JackFross]

The issue is that there's currently a system in place where they can have the person punished if they kick someone for poor performance, because they are using third-party software that breaks the ToC. Unless they revise the ToC, the second a parsing system is in the game and those numbers are public to anyone in that instance, you lose that leverage. There would be no penalty for kicking someone because they suck.

Even if it wouldn't happen often, the fact that, if it DID happen, it would likely go unpunished and allow whoever did it to just do it again later with impunity is just kinda... not ideal?

It's not as black and white as people wanna make it seem, is all. I guess I'm harping on the minority cases when in general it'd be just fine. x:

[OPneedNerfs]

1. Kicking after saying someone is dealing low dps (risk getting banned)

2. Kicking without saying anything.

Both will get some form of QQ and rage from the one kicked. Difference is that 1 of those may lead to something positive (self improvement) while the other does not.

Anyone with a grasp of the TOS will choose choice no.2 because it is not worth it risking a ban to aid in another's improvement.

Kicking due to bad performance was a thing, is a thing and will continue to be a thing in this game regardless of parsers.

If 1/10 groups kick a player, the problem was the group. If 9/10 groups kick a player, its the player.

[JackFross]

See but that's the point I'm getting to. It's not objectively "wrong" to play the class in a way that's not optimal. You can't make that claim. Even if their rotation doesn't match the ideal base rotation (which I would consider the skill floor of a class - any worse than that and you're barely even playing the class) it's still not technically a WRONG way to play. Could they do better? Yes. Should they do better? Absolutely.

This argument just has two parts:

In a DF group where you didn't choose your members, nobody should be so anal about perfection that they'll kick someone for playing differently/sub-optimally. It's rude to be willfully bad, yes. But it's Duty Finder. I don't know why people expect perfection from randoms who will never see you again.

In a PF group that's intending to clear difficult content or farm outdated content, you should be more than willing and ready to kick people out who aren't pulling their weight. And yes, for DPS, you NEED a parser to see that, definitively. I don't deny this.


The bottom line is people need to get their heads out of their asses and stop expecting DF players to be top of the line with top-level gear doing ace damage all the time. Yeah, some players just don't give a fuck and don't try in dungeons. Does that mean you should get your panties in a bunch and kick them? No. When I DF expert roulette on my dragoon, my runs are rarely longer than 20 minutes. Those times when I err on the side of 20 is when the tank pulls 300 or less and the other dps is 600 or so on bosses. I can't see how 20 minutes is really that much worse than 15 to the point you'd get openly pissed off about some dps not doing their job. Just do your job well and stop whining, basically. If you want faster runs, run with a premade party of people you know and stop using duty finder. :\

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

The bottom line is people need to get their heads out of their asses and stop expecting DF players to be top of the line with top-level gear doing ace damage all the time.

The contrary also applies, though.

[RiceisNice]

...

And the other side is that you can't objectify or quantify the numbers that people who are deliberately playing bad. Like... if we're throwing out numbers, a DRG can spam heavy thrust and still collectively do around 600 dps. That's nowhere near optimal and would add maybe 5 minutes to a dungeon queue, but if you're doing worse than that and dipping around 300, you have to be doing something like spamming full thrust or alt-tabbng/netflixing during pulls. When a individual can't even be assed to do that little, numbers can help quantify that information. It probably won't change the fact they'd get kicked anyway, but that's just as much as in effect as changing the perspective of people who are overly anal about their dps (which goes back to this, even if they're playing sub optimally, they don't necessarily know because the information isn't quantified, nor can it be safely shared with the current ToS set in place_/

[rappa]

And this is the reason we need a parser ingame.





Blue = pld
Red = bard
Green = healer

To hard to learn your job.

[Aiselia]

And this is the reason we need a parser ingame.

I don't get it. What part of that demanded the use of a parser?