The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Alkel]

At this point, when playing MCH i have the feeling im playing a gimp job and the poor mp/tp refresh or hypercharge will never justify playing a gimp job. The DPS gap is so huge that even OT War is doing better, what a shame...

Fact is, any group will do better in Bismarck/Ravana EX without a BRD/MCH. Thats why people refuse MCH in PF right now and the same will probably happen to BRD as soon as everyone understand how they nerfed the job.

Im still waiting the release of Alexander, only to see how BRD/MCH will be kicked from group and then it will be time to go back on BLM or NIN.

The nerf on BRD/MCH must end or most of us will quit the jobs.

[Typhoria]

I don't get the hostility against buffing brd/mch damage. The end goal is killing mobs, if you are in DF you will be getting a brd or a mch eventually. Wouldn't you like for them to drop the mobs faster to finish the dungeon quicker? As is, tp/mp regen is almost never used in the 4 man dungeons, or even Bismark Ex for that matter.

People play better if they enjoy the class they are playing. So as long as the dps is remotely even, you will have better performance from people who are enjoying their class.

[Viar]

Excuse me, but if you never have to use MB/promotion with actively CS-shuffling whm in the party, there's something wrong with either tank or whm. Or DPS for that matter.
And yes, AP is not really used that much in 4-man aside from getting melee up to speed after being raised.

...Btw, if you have troubles dropping mobs in a dungeon with BRD in a party, there's something wrong with the player, not the job, as it is rn.

[Calypsx]

I don't really think anyone is actually against buffing BRD and MCH damage because they kind of suck right now. They in a really bad place and it's pretty obvious it'll be receiving a lot of fixes and buffs as things go on.

[Caitlyn]

Lowering the damage of MCH/BRDs? Its pretty low right now, so there is no reason to lower it even more. In fact, SE have to fix many things for those 2 jobs, especially the average damage output and skills like WM/GB.

At the moment, MCH/BRDs are not valuable for the upcoming Alexander Raid. Even in Bismarck Ex, the MCH is the major weakpoint in any group. Even the tanks (with melee accessories equipped) are doing more damage than the MCH.

The statement about utility is mostly invalid.

[SaintCartridge]

Caitlyn you can't really make those statements and take them for granted in every given situation that you have a MCH in the party.

No class, no job is a weakpoint, the player is. What you can say though, is that MCH requires a higher base of good players to make it work more efficiently when compared to other jobs. And I do agree with you when you say we need buffs and our DPS potential is not that great, but that's it. You can perform well with this job in the current content and clear everything with no difficulties if the other DPS also do their jobs.

If every DPS job performs at a 100% lvl in a perfect world, then maybe MCH has the lower dps of them all (maybe). But nothing is perfect in any party ^^

PS: i've seen paladins doing 550 DPS on Ravana EX. MCH can easly make more dmg than that. If they can't, they are having a crappy match to say the least.

[yamochan]

Well looks like you beat me to the punch yamochan.

seems like i did indeed ^^

snip-

my god what BS is that. the best BRD and MCH in the world wont do any more dmg with that than the rotation gives you and that means parsing in at round about 900 dps in boss fights (maybe even less for MCH cause they got ,an i cant belive ill say that, NERFED)while the rest does 1.2k (ofc a bit less for ur ravana example) but that wont change the fact that MCH and BRD are still way behind the rest. ofc any MCH with half a brain can do 550 but 550 is not much and a paladin is not a target we can look at here. rather look at some DRK with 950 dps.

[Caitlyn]

Dont get me wrong. Its not about that MCH and BRDs do less damage than other DPS classes, thats ok. Its just about the huge gap between MCH/BRD and the other DPS.

Its like 700 MSC and 1.200 MNK. The difference of 500 makes a 9th person who have to fill this gap.

As I heard about the machinist and its skills, I expected a class which fills the gap between Bards and Melees. Just a class who does a little more damage as a Bard and support the Party in other ways, as the Bard did. Something like a supplement to Bards and Summoners. But at the moment, I feel more like a bard-clone with guns and procs.


Thats just an idea, but:

Maybe it would be nice to have 3 turrets to choose from (1 DPS, 1 Regen, 1 Heal). There you can switch between Single-Target/Aoe, MP/TP-Regeneration and AoE-Heal/Aoe-Shield.

The Proc-System is ok, if you have a kombo or skills to bypass those slow-dps-moments. Gauß-Barrel would be an option, when you have no cast-time for any skills, but you're unable to use Ammunition while GB is on. The burst damage is reduced, but then you can do more overall damage.

[Ramath]

I love how everyone here justifies the current BRD/MCN with words like "support" and "utility."

Yet, in game, they are kicked because of words like "DPS" and "parser."

Everyone here says "Their dps is fine! Get over it!"

But, in game, we hear "BRD/MCN dps sucks! Kick them."

I can't be the only one seeing the hypocrisy in all of this...

[SovereignAegis]

Everyone seem to forget, AT THE END OF THE DAY (MOST) PEOPLE WANT TO CLEAR CONTENT SUCESSFULLY/FARM CONTENT SUCCESSFULLY.

IF SOMETHING STANDS IN THE WAY OF THAT PROCESS IT IS IGNORED/SHAFTED.


This is why Northern Thanalan is swamped with fate grinders, this is why we don't see people trying to make gil by farming ladybugs in gridania, this is why we don't see people using Santasha to level up from level 59-60, etc.

Hell, this is why with daily roulettes NOT implemented for raids which are now dead empty like coil that we see lower level dungeon roulettes filled. BECAUSE THERE IS THE PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE TO GET TO A GOAL (level, poetics, law, etc?)

If you put up reasons why something could stand in someone's way or is likely to THEY REMOVE IT.

That is what BRD/MCH are in most people's mind. Obstacles in the way of their success that they WILL remove because they can.

I love how everyone here justifies the current BRD/MCN with words like "support" and "utility."

Yet, in game, they are kicked because of words like "DPS" and "parser."

Everyone here says "Their dps is fine! Get over it!"

But, in game, we hear "BRD/MCN dps sucks! Kick them."

I can't be the only one seeing the hypocrisy in all of this...

Oh I see it, that is exactly why I am making this thread and being vocal.

At present it is obvious that in game in PRACTICE (NOT theory) Bards/Machinists are NOT cutting it and are being removed from groups that are competitive (Bismark, Ravana). YES WE HAVE A FEW MCH/BRD THAT HAVE CLEARED THEM AND DO WELL, but they are obviously the minority when I am confident I can log in right now and see a PF group saying "No MCH" or outright not even letting BRD/MCH join as a DPS by the DPS selection tool in party finder.


Having all the theory in the world doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day a DPS slot taken up by someone... MUST HAVE DPS CONTRIBUTED. And not just a tiny amount as BRD/MCH are at, a LARGE amount like NIN, DRG, MNK! Perhaps a bit lower, but not THIS much lower BEFORE songs/turret loss.