The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Seifa]

BRD and MCH are in a horrible spot, but if groups are kicking them because they can't beat a DPS check, they should start looking at the other damage dealers' performace, because with my FC group i cleared both Bismark and Ravana with no problems and i sell runs with 7 players. But you know, most of the bad players won't admit they are doing sub par damage and kick the class that has obvious problems in dealing damage compared to the average parses.

This doesn't justify the class team's job on both BRD and MCH, because they were blind during testing and as a Bard i can say what WM isn't what Yoshida advertised to us: a casting stance to be on par with other dps by sacrificing mobility, because bards were gimped for being able to shoot while moving.

[Ryaz]

I've been wanting to join a Bis ex party myself. I'm ilvl 174 and more than geared enough to handle it, even as a MCH. But when you mouse over the comment and you see "No MCH" it kind of kills your motivation.

[Keylus]

I love how everyone here justifies the current BRD/MCN with words like "support" and "utility."

Yet, in game, they are kicked because of words like "DPS" and "parser."

Everyone here says "Their dps is fine! Get over it!"

But, in game, we hear "BRD/MCN dps sucks! Kick them."

I can't be the only one seeing the hypocrisy in all of this...

Well, the community does not have an hive mind. You can't call hypocrisy because the people that say that MCN is fine are not the same that the people that say otherwise

[Ryaz]

Well, the community does not have an hive mind. You can't call hypocrisy because the people that say that MCN is fine are not the same that the people that say otherwise

I've seen opinions on both sides personally, to unreasonable extremes at times like people tend to do. The problem I see is that one group says our damage sucks based on parses. Then someone posts a parse that's actually pretty good and it's all "You got lucky crits!" Or "You had someone else buffing you!" No one wants to believe anything the other side says. It's as bad as politics. One side says we're completely fine, another side says we're completely broken when in truth, it's probably somewhere in between.

[Jaegerkrantz]

If SE want the bard to be support/utility with lower dmg then the rest then perhaps change Foe Requiem from -10% enemy magic resistance to giving the rest of the grp 5-10% increased dmg instead, perhaps give it 20% bard dmg reduction in order to balance it out while its turned on, we can already increase your MP and TP Regen, might aswell give us the ability to buff the grps dmg.

[Twilite]

That's like saying a car uses water, so it doesn't need gas.

[Panasync]

I've seen opinions on both sides personally, to unreasonable extremes at times like people tend to do. The problem I see is that one group says our damage sucks based on parses. Then someone posts a parse that's actually pretty good and it's all "You got lucky crits!" Or "You had someone else buffing you!" No one wants to believe anything the other side says. It's as bad as politics. One side says we're completely fine, another side says we're completely broken when in truth, it's probably somewhere in between.

I think the main issue is people are posting parses that are close to what bard (obviously no machinist at the time) were prior to 3.0 (comparatively), we've now been given a stance that enables the ability to supposedly be a DPS (redundant and bad imo, but not the point), yet with that stance at maximum we still fall below every other DPS and damn near on par with tanks.

If they added a stance and gated abilities simply to be able to do what we were doing prior to 3.0, no thanks. With 0 support abilities up, and GB/WM on, we should be able to compete with every other DPS.

[Kayote]

Do MNK's get crap for their Mantra? What about Dragon Kick? One Ilm? Nope. Ninjas and their Goad? Dancing Edge? DRG Battle Litany? SMN with Virus or Eye for an Eye? Are those not support abilities akin to FR. Dancing Edge looks like its a repeatable debuff useful for any melee. Pretty sure WAR's use it too. Let stop pretending BRD buffs are THAT special without their own unique/special weaknesses. You can only do one at a time, LONG cast times, 2 of the 3 come with a damage debuff and are slow ticks on recovery. How exactly are we supposed to use Warden's Paean? Randomly pick a target and hope that there'll be a "detrimental effect" coming after 3 and within 30 seconds? That WAY overcompensates for any CD or short timer available for the others.

[Leonus]

Do MNK's get crap for their Mantra? What about Dragon Kick? One Ilm? Nope. Ninjas and their Goad? Dancing Edge? DRG Battle Litany? SMN with Virus or Eye for an Eye? Are those not support abilities akin to FR. Dancing Edge looks like its a repeatable debuff useful for any melee. Pretty sure WAR's use it too. Let stop pretending BRD buffs are THAT special without their own unique/special weaknesses. You can only do one at a time, LONG cast times, 2 of the 3 come with a damage debuff and are slow ticks on recovery. How exactly are we supposed to use Warden's Paean? Randomly pick a target and hope that there'll be a "detrimental effect" coming after 3 and within 30 seconds? That WAY overcompensates for any CD or short timer available for the others.

This post made me laugh. It was amazing.

Manta - increases healing done for a period time (short). It helps Brds delay mp song a little longer to keep dpsing.

Dragon kick, lowers targets in, decreases blunt resistance. Has to be kept up to ensure maximum dps by the mnk. The intended down is an added bonus.

Goad - 3 minute cool down, single target. Not even on the same level as paeon. Don't try and pretend that it is.

Dancing edge, decreases mobs slashing resistance. Good for tanks and nin... that's it. Has to be kept up for the nin to do max dps. Unless a war is applying it. Then nin isn't even using it.

Battle littany - 3 minute recast for an increase CHANCE to crit. Criticals aren't guarunteed.

Disembowel - Drgs use it to increase dps, lowers piercing resistance. Increase BRD and MCH dps as well.

Virus, decreases damage done by a boss/mob for a period of time. Usually saved for the hard hiring unavoidable party mechanic.

I mean, these are all nice but...

Party wide tp/mp regen kind of shit on those abilities with just these two alone. That's why Brds are so sought after for hard progression content (coil). Those two abilities allow dps/healers/tanks to even take top notch advantage of these abilities.

Can't dps without tp, can't dps/heal without mp/ can hold ago without tp/mp. Anyone can tell you that in real progression content, not having a brd made things significantly harder. Possibly still doable, but harder none the less.

Could they do a bit more damage? Sure, as much as a physical dps or a blm/smn? Mmm, probably not. If they did, they make EVERYONE else irrelevant outside of tanks and healers and a few mechanic driven clashes. And maybe a drg to boost the Brds damage further and a melee lb since it's still the best single target damage chunk.

Granted, they should do more than tanks, which with the last update, they more than likely do.

At this point, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I don't think anyone can really change anyone else's mind about their stance on the issue.

You are either for or against brd doing equal damage to melee/casters. Everyone can probably agree that they should do more than tanks though. Maybe a bit more appeal outside of progression and statics with established brds/mch.

[Viviza]

Let stop pretending BRD buffs are THAT special without their own unique/special weaknesses.

Except that we do have to make this assumption based on previous experience. Bards in 2.0 were overrepresented and stacked in raids because their buffs were highly desirable and their DPS was equal. They had to be changed to allow other jobs a place.

Additionally you have a recent dev post discussing this anyway. The position of brd/mch dps is intentional, to offset their utility. Fighting against the very purpose of a job is not a fight you are going to win. You'd be better off accepting the advantages and limitations of the job you enjoy, or picking another job that you can learn to enjoy.