The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

[Noira]

You guys really need to stop comparing bard to melee (exluding smoke screen and shadewalker from ninja). Those "support" abilities melee have ? Is part of their damage rotation. Disembowel is a piercing buff for the DRG THEMSELVES, Bard and MCH just happen to benefit...Do you reallly think we would stop using disembowel if there isnt a bard or mch in the party ? A monk wouldn't not use dragon kick it's a damage increase for them (they are blunt damage)

Trick attack is again part of the ninja rotation for burst damage.

Battle Litany kinda dumb to penalize DRG for using an ability that relies too much on rng to even benefit from it. Even then it's still for themselves mostly. No one is going to yell at a drg for not using it. (though im not sure why they wouldn't)

Smoke Screen for sure you could argue that, but what would be the point it's situational ability ?

Shadewalker Yes you would have an argument there.

Goad unlike baard, they cannot goad themselves.

[SpookyGhost]

Battle Litany kinda dumb to penalize DRG for using an ability that relies too much on rng to even benefit from it. Even then it's still for themselves mostly. No one is going to yell at a drg for not using it. (though im not sure why they wouldn't)

I will. ( ' - ' )b

[Odowla]

I will. ( ' - ' )b

>maim class marauder

FELL CLEAVE CRITS

checks out here

[AxelDH]

The support offered by Bards has traditionally been much more 'instrumental' (heh) to the raid than the support abilities offered by any other DPS class. Disembowel, Dragon Kick, Goad, Trick Attack, Battle Res/Virus from Summoners, Apocatastasis, and so on... these were all nice to have, but none were specifically required to progress from T1-13. However, I would say that pretty much every group had to take a Bard along. Until people got over geared for each floor, Ballad and Paeon were mandatory.

Merely having such powerful support options available is reason enough for BRDs and MCHs to be weaker than the dedicated DPS classes. If they could do the same DPS as a BLM by default, but offer much more support when its called for, then why bring a BLM?

When Alex Savage comes out, I think its safe to say that TP & MP regen will be necessary again, and every raid group will want to bring a Bard or Machinist along.

[Panasync]

Merely having such powerful support options available is reason enough for BRDs and MCHs to be weaker than the dedicated DPS classes. If they could do the same DPS as a BLM by default, but offer much more support when its called for, then why bring a BLM?

I answered this above, but again, there are ways to curb this as to not neuter jobs. I mean you could flat-out not allow job stacking at all, or simply don't let BRD's stack (hell you could alter the way the songs work altogether and make them a % less useful depending on how many bards you have, why stack BRD for songs when they are only doing 3% of what they would do before you stacked the job?), you could remove the LB altogether if you stack, there are plenty of things that you can do. There is too much synergy between jobs to ever have more than 2 as it is, and we already stack 2 jobs when we're met with early DPS checks, do we neuter MNKS because people were stacking them for progression in SCoB and FCoB?

[Panasync]

You guys really need to stop comparing...

Being part of a damage rotation doesn't somehow preclude them from being supportive effects. The fact Ballad isn't tied to a damage ability literally means nothing, the abilities are either supportive or they're not regardless of how they're applied.

Just because you get no use from a buff/debuff ability/spell from your job doesn't somehow negate it's a support ability either. Bard literally gets nothing out of Foe's, much like Ninja gets nothing out of Goad. Is Foe not a supportive ability now? Most of you people arguing aren't even thinking through your arguments, you're just throwing everything and anything hoping something will stick.

There are numerous ways to curb job stacking in a more healthy manner than mutilating the capabilities of jobs because you refuse to put a support role into the game. We already saw an answer to this back in 2.1.

[Kayote]

You guys trying to turn the game into WoW or something?

No, we're trying to set BRD on an actual role so bullshit like what happened at Heavenwards release doesnt happen anymore. Either make a support role in DF and group balance or up our DPS. Situational perks to save a bad group that couldnt manage their TP/MP doesnt make a support class.

This game has 4 roles, tank, heal, damage, and support. You want to reduce it to just tank, heal, and damage?

LOL! I mean I dont usually flat out do this but this is the dumbest most ridiculous thing Ive read on these forums in a long time. No... there isnt. Screenshot it. I want to see where I can queue up as support. Show me in what current content I can sit back, buff the shit out of everyone and not get kicked for sucking. I will eat every word Ive said on the subject. Go ahead.

If they buff support's DPS, they have to give damage more support abilities so they get brought along - i.e. support and damage are now one and the same thing.

If thats true then nerf our buffs or buff the "support" of the rest of the DPS. We're not support, it does not exist.

You want to see what real support class looks like? In a game with actual support roles. Educate yourself!
http://telarapedia.gamepedia.com/Bard_abilities

Notice how its also a Bard, a support Bard none the less. Thats what a support class looks like. All kinds of buffs and even heals! Now ompare that to BRD. K thx.

BTW .. this is what DF looks like in a game with a support role.

Count them ... 4, not 3 ... 4. Thats what 4 roles look like. Now compare that to the DF in FFXIV and tell me if you spot the difference.

So no, not WoW. Though I should mention (again) WoWs Hunters are DPS, have pretty much cover every buff available in game... and noone says "OMG we need a Hunter!" On the contrary, theyve basically been hated since release. For starters no game should be balanced around requiring a certain class in the game above others. Second, seeing as we're DPS in a game with no support queue, even if our songs were or are OP ... then our SONGS are the problem. Not DPS. Thats like saying PLD DPS is too high ... lets nerf their enmity!

Seriously, Blizzard listened to players like you. Results? Homogenized classes where everyone is nearly almost the same.

Ghostcrawler said it best,

Funny you mention that. Seeing as how BRD and MCH are pretty much the most copy/pasta classes I have ever played. So much so they got gimped and "fixed" in the same nearly identical patches. Have very similar buffs, DPS stance, DoTs, weapon damage, etc. So what were you saying about homogenization? We could use a good physical ranged DPS as a matter of fact. Thats something unseen in this game for about 2 years now.

Most of you people arguing aren't even thinking through your arguments, you're just throwing everything and anything hoping something will stick.

Unbelievable. Those quoted above are just the pinnacle of this crap. Its just mind boggling how theyll just reason out anything out of thin air just to keep BRD's and now MCH's down.

[Aiselia]

Those "support" abilities melee have ? Is part of their damage rotation.

So what you're saying is that their support skills that help themselves and potentially other members of the party are part of their rotation and therefore likely to have as much uptime as possible (in the case of cooldowns) or 100% uptime (in the case of debuffs like Disembowel) or are highly situational?

Foe's is situational on you having casters to damage. I ignore healers because those are also situational on nobody needing healing.
Ballad/Paeon are far more situational than "Less enmity" because less enmity can always help, whereas extra TP/MP is useless until people have been fighting long enough to get low.

So basically what you're saying is that melee classes are actually supporting themselves and potentially the party far more often than a Bard is?

Then why are Bards considered the support class?