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  1. #1
    Player
    SovereignAegis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    468
    Character
    Cole Evyx
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90

    The argument"MCH/Bard have utility so their damage should be lower"

    This is an invalid argument in my opinion for one simple fact and reason, ...oh wait I have 3 great reasons!

    #1: Other classes get strong utility as well.
    -Dragoon's crit buff is absolutely insane (15%!!!?!!?!) and increases piercing damage

    -BLM gets Apochiasisis and is outright the king of AoE with no rival

    -Monk gets enhanced mantra, removes buffs from enemies and reduces their intelligence and resistance by 10%

    -SMN gets eye for an eye and supervirus

    -Ninjas have smokescreen, trick attack (Oh and let me make clear what this ability does just to rub it in really well: Increases target's damage taken by 10% for 10s on a 60s cd timer.) And Goad (TP REGAIN) and Shadewalker


    Your argument that the other DPS clasess do not bring strong utility is false at the highest level, it does not hold merit.


    #2: THE DAMAGE REDUCTION IS BUILT INTO THEIR KITS.

    BUILT. INTO. THEIR. KITS. AS. IS.

    Bard gets a 15% damage reduction to ALL OF THEIR ABILITIES.

    Mach absolutely loses their turret's dps contribution (80 potency spammed) and also invalidates their level 58 hypercharge ability!
    THIS IS NOTICABLE IN PRACTICE FOR CERTAIN.

    It is not even close to the fact that these skills go unchecked. The DPS loss is significant and adds up QUICKLY when the songs are used. 10 seconds of the songs even is 10*DPS_LOSS. And mana is built into their kits and is lost as well, these skills do NOT come without significant tethers and DPS losses. They are already built to punish people significantly who activate the effects. These are NOT "pop and forget" abilities, they come at a premium. Also even if someone is naïve enough to leave them on they will run OOM quickly and be unable to provide this utility later.


    #3: DPS CHECKS IN RAIDS.
    BARDS AND MACHINISTS TAKE UP A DPS SLOT. Go try Ravana EX with multiple bards and machinists, you simply can not do it.

    Then try it with a full team of monks or dragoons and see it be the easiest clear you've ever had (I speak from personal experience).

    At present taking more than ONE OF a Bard or Machinist is a liability at DPS checks. Either as a healer (Me) you have to DPS to make up for the lost damage or you will not pass.

    "But the numbers in dps calculators say it isn't that much lower", HONEY IN PRACTICE IT IS THAT MUCH LOWER. Whether that be because of cast times or whatever else it is just flat out that much lower at present.

    This isn't acceptable for two classes to be so below the rest in the same role that it is almost abhorred to take even a bard and a machinist (one of each). It is an EXCLUSIVE OR Bard or machinist if not take neither at present.

    However because of healers mana demands they are granted a spot begrudgingly in statics/ party finder groups.



    Closing statement ------------

    So why do we have this mentality that Bards and Machinists MUST have at least 20% lower DPS... BEFORE EVEN USING THEIR MANASONG/LOSING THEIR CRITICAL TURRET? (So even lower?!?!?!?!)

    They have also been forced to eat the massive "nerf" of casting times that now they cannot move much at all compared to before with WM and Gauss. In other words their playstyle has been crippled ontop of their lower damage.

    So I strongly feel that this argument that bards/machinists should have lower DPS at any given moment than other DPS classes is an invalid statement that should be made obsolete.
    (100)
    Last edited by SovereignAegis; 06-29-2015 at 02:58 AM.

  2. #2
    Player
    Modander's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    2
    Character
    Haruka Tarin
    World
    Shiva
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 60
    Just 100% sign!

    I have tryd to discuss with a friend yesterday and he didnt saw naything of this!
    There is NO fucking reason, that they have ~400 dps lower than any of the other dps.
    And on top of that, they have a lower DPS than Offtanking tanks! (Warrior: 950 dps - bard 830 dps with ilvl 179)
    I dont think, there is much more to say.
    (23)

  3. #3
    Player
    Nexxa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    109
    Character
    Nell Aveira
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Reaper Lv 80
    Yeah other classes get utility but it pales in comparison to what BRD and MCH bring to the table. Just my two cents, though. A single target debuff and a limited useful buff here and there doesn't really hold a candle to teamwide, tide turning effects like mana and TP regen. If they were willing to bring the utility of other classes up to snuff with BRD and MCH I would be in agreement with you.
    (10)

  4. #4
    Player
    mb52139's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    116
    Character
    Velora Hunter
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 60
    The minor utility that barely gets used in most instances.. does not really justify the massive nerfs. Honestly I think this is just a case of SE not doing proper testing/understanding their classes. Likely none of the devs actually play bard or MCH.
    (17)

  5. #5
    Player
    SovereignAegis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    468
    Character
    Cole Evyx
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Nexxa View Post
    Yeah other classes get utility but it pales in comparison to what BRD and MCH bring to the table. Just my two cents, though. A single target debuff and a limited useful buff here and there doesn't really hold a candle to teamwide, tide turning effects like mana and TP regen. If they were willing to bring the utility of other classes up to snuff with BRD and MCH I would be in agreement with you.
    That however is ignoring the fact that MCH and Bard already have costs (steep STEEP costs, the losses they suffer are not trivial) attached to the skills.

    There is no need to add insult to injury which is what the current outright state of their dps is in at present.

    Like yes I agree those effects are great, but they come at a cost that is built into the skills. We need not add MORE costs even when they are not being used- which is what we face at present. There is a constant cost bogging both classes down ONTOP of the cost of using the skills.


    Quote Originally Posted by mb52139 View Post
    The minor utility that barely gets used in most instances.. does not really justify the massive nerfs. Honestly I think this is just a case of SE not doing proper testing/understanding their classes. Likely none of the devs actually play bard or MCH.
    I'm not going to pretend MP/TP regain is small, but I agree with you. The costs are already built into the skills, there is no need to gut them overall ontop of the built-in cost.

    The songs surely are not useful even 90% of the time (hunts, exploration, trash mobs in raids, dungeoning even mana song may be used 2-3 times if ever with a confident healer). But in the 10% they are used it comes at a staggering cost to DPS.

    There is no need to punish them so excessively ontop of their built in punishment to use the skills. Keeping the skills active is extremely costly. Loss of that much DPS adds up FAST.
    (14)
    Last edited by SovereignAegis; 06-29-2015 at 02:31 AM.

  6. #6
    Player
    mb52139's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    116
    Character
    Velora Hunter
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Bard Lv 60
    Hmm, yes perhaps I worded that wrong. In many situations, you don't need the utility, but those times that you do, they are game changers. The nerf should only be if you use the skills, not all the time.
    (4)

  7. #7
    Player
    Underdog2204's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    420
    Character
    Dacien Valtin
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Nexxa View Post
    Snip
    So we are ignoring disembowel and an party wide +15% crit buff for everyone then? Guess so...

    What about the fact they have a damage reduction cost when using regen abilities ontop of their already low dps?

    Guess their damage should be low all the time because of...? I've yet to see one decent argument for it other than people spouting the reasons liks it's still pre 2:0. It wasn't even very valid then, other than for people jelous that BRD as a dps job could out dps them -_-

    Face it the argument is just code for "they should not be allowed to challange my spot in dps under any circumstance". Or it's just people not looking at the culmination of effects that happen to both jobs that make them incredibly weak, it's just easier to go "nope regen skillz" I suppose.
    (15)

  8. #8
    Player
    SovereignAegis's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    468
    Character
    Cole Evyx
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Underdog2204 View Post
    So we are ignoring disembowel and an party wide +15% crit buff for everyone then? Guess so...

    What about the fact they have a damage reduction cost when using regen abilities ontop of their already low dps?

    Guess their damage should be low all the time because of...? I've yet to see one decent argument for it other than people spouting the reasons liks it's still pre 2:0.

    Face it the argument is just code for "they should not be allowed to challange my spot in dps under any circumstance". Or it's just people not looking at the culmination of effects that happen to both jobs that make them incredibly weak, it's just easier to go "nope regen skillz" I suppose.

    Do not forget with WM (bards) and gauss (MCH) we lost class features of mobility and now have cast times on all our abilities (and removed auto attacks).
    Many argue that this is a part of the classes identities, and it was destroyed this patch.

    This patch came at a steep cost to these two classes.
    (19)

  9. #9
    Player
    ClaireTagg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    23
    Character
    Claire Tagg
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 50
    Couldn't have said it better myself.
    (5)

  10. #10
    Player
    Warlyx's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    3,065
    Character
    Warlyx Arada
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    White Mage Lv 90
    u forgot smn rez in combat :P oh and maybe u can add smn / blm can use sprint

    brd and mch utility is usefull while learning a encounter and progression raids , once geared healers have little to no issues with mp , and melees now an extra way to regain TP (mnk war for example)
    (11)
    Last edited by Warlyx; 06-29-2015 at 02:51 AM.

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