The Ninja Superthread

[silentwindfr]

since they don't plan to add a new mudra, i doubt they will add new ninjutsu, since all the skill will be earned throught quest. why did we get a few ninjutsu skill at the time, was because they was adding a mudra.
at best (and i hope i'm wrong) we will get a quest every 2 level.... then at best we do have 1 skill not know.
and exept if they decide to add another mudra... we are doomed to see little to no change to the jobs... outside the positional, like they have said.

[CyrusStarChaser]

we are doomed to see little to no change to the jobs... outside the positional, like they have said.

Which, as far as I am concerned is like, the worse change they coulda reasonable made to be honest. I mean, there's a reason I don't play MNK...

[silentwindfr]

i feel the same dude... i don't stop to say it... it's the worst change they can do to the jobs, a lot of person did choose ninja because of the lack of positional.... bring it into the ninja more of 6 month after is kinda rude and insulting for this player.

it's like SE did decide to say: you like this jobs because of this, sorry but.... other don't like that you are different, then we add positional to you.
because that the truth behind the add of positional, because the other community did complain and cry of jealousy over the difference of the ninja.

ps: if they did add the positional because they had no other idea, it worst.... really... i still prefer that they did had the positional because of the complain of the other than decide to broke our jobs because of them inability to bring new mechanic to our jobs. really...

[Allyrion]

i feel the same dude... i don't stop to say it... it's the worst change they can do to the jobs, a lot of person did choose ninja because of the lack of positional.... bring it into the ninja more of 6 month after is kinda rude and insulting for this player.

it's like SE did decide to say: you like this jobs because of this, sorry but.... other don't like that you are different, then we add positional to you.
because that the truth behind the add of positional, because the other community did complain and cry of jealousy over the difference of the ninja.

ps: if they did add the positional because they had no other idea, it worst.... really... i still prefer that they did had the positional because of the complain of the other than decide to broke our jobs because of them inability to bring new mechanic to our jobs. really...

I'll just quote myself from another thread:

I think you put too much emphasis on thinking SE handcrafted NIN difficulty to perfection without positionals in mind.
I think it's much more flexible than that, and they clearly think that adding positionals to manage would be within the range of mechanics they want for NIN.
Whatever they thought originally, they changed their mind and think we can handle the NIN rotation with positionals.



You say that, yet I'm a NIN main and I obviously think adding positionals are okay.
I've argued this with you before, but don't get me wrong.
I think they can and should add a lot of interesting and challenging mechanics to Ninja going forward.
But I've also made it clear that I believe NIN isn't ready for that much change yet due to it only being live for one tier of raiding.
I want them to think carefully on what direction on how to develop NIN.
Positionals aren't a development or direction. They're more basic than that.


I think Positionals are to Melee as Casting is to Ranged.
Ranged get more dps standing still and lose dps moving, but some are certainly more mobile than other having instant casts or through stance switching (for the new BRD).
Every ranged still has to work around the idea that movement needs to be managed.
This is why BRD had to get WM.

For Melee, some have less positional bonuses than others (equivalent to having instant casts) but they should all still have to consider their movement.
I honestly don't think freedom of movement is a luxury any dps should afford.
I don't think NIN should be MNKs with knives, but having positionals doesn't do that.
Just like charging attacks is a basic function of ranged, positional attacks should be a basic function of melee.

I want to play a NIN and I want them to add interesting Ninja only mechanics.
I also want to have to consider my movement to some extent or lose some damage while doing all of that.
I think NIN will get some more interesting mechanics after Heavensward launch since it came out so late.

Sure, it's not great to see everyone else get more interesting changes.
But we shouldn't pretend things are equal here. NIN came out in 2.4 with the Final Coil.
Our launch was late and there's no reason to expect we'd get the same treatment.

TLDR
Positionals are simply implementing a more basic design, it's not a new class development or direction.
I bolded the last part because it is more relevant.
I think we'll get more interesting mechanics going forward but they shouldn't rush it.
It took 2 years and 3 tiers for the additions all the other classes got.
NIN has been out for less than a year and only ONE tier.

NIN shouldn't expect the same amount of change when it hasn't gotten its feet wet compared to the rest.
Positionals aren't a lazy change for the sake of it.
It's simply bringing NIN in line to the base design of Melee in this game. It's a fix, not a development.
We'll get real class development and direction later on, as we should.

My TLDR.....might be too long itself...

[Punintentional]

I dont remember seeing this asked here yet but,

So out of curiosity have they said if the positional will just do extra damage compared to now or will missing the positional will result in less damage then the skills currently have.

As an example Dancing edge currently has 260, so will it keep the 260 base with a bonus for positional, or will the base be like 200 (random number) and the bonus make it like 300 (also random number).

If the former is true then I don't real see a problem with adding the positionals, because you can keep your current rotation while slowly adding in the new mechanics with no loss in DPS.

All in all I will wait to judge the play style until I get the chance to use it but I agree that more information would be helpful.

[silentwindfr]

and i will repeat something i had said before:
if positional was means to be there from the start, the ninja will have some. other point what the point to have all the jobs have the same way to play?
finally, you don't change the direction of a jobs (because that what do the positional) 6+ month later it release. it's something that need an expansion for be done, it was possible to do it while the 2.5.

and finally, i don't think that a melee must have a positional for be considerate as a melee. not every ranged have casting time, machinist don't seems have casting time, bard is not forced to have casting time.

finally, the pitifull escuse to say that the jobs don't deserve new mechanic from an expansion because it did come out 6+ month ago is bad in soo many way... an expansion is here for expand our game, meaning the gameplay, the mechanic, the world and the jobs possibility! it's worst in the case of the ninja, because it means when they did release it 6+ month ago, they didn't think at any new mechanic that can be interesting to be added with the expansion! it was possible to plan this before hand... here all we can see it's they have no idea of what they can do or add to our jobs.... instead they did give us positional to a job not means to have it nor adapted for it nor designed for it!

sorry, i can't find any decent escuse for pardon them inability to listen to our need or for bring new mechanic or simply develop our mechanic. because nothing we have seen so far go into this sense. for me, if we had this while a patch it will have been same! but here we are talking of an expansion! not a patch! for the godsake! we have the right and duty to be angry for the treatment that our jobs did receive! an expansion is not a patch!

I dont remember seeing this asked here yet but,

So out of curiosity have they said if the positional will just do extra damage compared to now or will missing the positional will result in less damage then the skills currently have.

As an example Dancing edge currently has 260, so will it keep the 260 base with a bonus for positional, or will the base be like 200 (random number) and the bonus make it like 300 (also random number).

If the former is true then I don't real see a problem with adding the positionals, because you can keep your current rotation while slowly adding in the new mechanics with no loss in DPS.

All in all I will wait to judge the play style until I get the chance to use it but I agree that more information would be helpful.

all they have said it we gonna need to pay attention because our skill will get positional it's normal to think that they will add a boost of potency, in worst case, we will see our dps reduce if we don't respect the positional. for make simple our dps will not evolve from this...

[CyrusStarChaser]

It's simply bringing NIN in line to the base design of Melee in this game.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't NIN ALREADY have as many positionals as DRG? So in that sense, they already are in line with other DPS. I don't mind DRG and NIN positionals (as they are now). For me, personally, the joy of playing NIN comes from freedom of movement. If they add one or two oGCD things that I need to be flank or back for then fine, that's a minor annoyance. But if we are gong to have all of our basic weapon skills be positinals like MNK then I'm tossing my daggers and never looking back.

[Dextro]

and i will repeat something i had said before:
if positional was means to be there from the start, the ninja will have some.

NIN had a flank positional on Dancing Edge on release iirc, it was pulled last minute by the dev team but the information was still on the tooltip until a few maintenances later.
Until it became common knowledge that Dancing Edge in fact -didn't- require a positional, lots of people were pulling it off just fine and not once did I see a single complaint about it.

Let's imagine they add positionals to 2 of our moves - with TA it makes a total of 3.
- If both are Flank then we remain at the Flank and simply move to the Rear for TA like we always do....
- If 1 is Flank and 1 is Rear, then we simply stay at the rear and move to the Flank for 1 single skill...
Surely you can pull this off with your already enhanced movement, right? It's really time to stop exaggerating how bad this is...

[silentwindfr]

NIN had a flank positional on Dancing Edge on release iirc, it was pulled last minute by the dev team but the information was still on the tooltip until a few maintenances later.
Until it became common knowledge that Dancing Edge in fact -didn't- require a positional, lots of people were pulling it off just fine and not once did I see a single complaint about it.

no it was an error of translation only in the english version, the french version from day 1 had no positional outside TA and SA.

and i doubt they only add 1-2 skill, the fact they have said several is quite clear.

[Allyrion]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't NIN ALREADY have as many positionals as DRG? So in that sense, they already are in line with other DPS. I don't mind DRG and NIN positionals (as they are now).

I'll correct you, it doesn't have the same amount.
It has 2 positionals, yes, but they share a cooldown together and they even have a cooldown at all.
So you use one positional every minute. Even DRG, which is not positional heavy uses at least 5 per minute.

I really don't think it'll be on the same level as monk. Possibly the same as or a little more than DRG.