Why Speed Pulls?

[Sousoulsu]

I'm actually goin to chime in and give my two cents on this quoted area here. The answer is: that both of these scenarios take a skilled group to pull off. Just as you have had your fair share with bad players being the ones to request smaller packs of enemies, I have had similar experiences with over geared raiders coming into dungeon, calling it brainless content and then they fail because they pull everything not noting the type of team they have to work with for the following reasons:

1. Lack of communication
2. Not even bothering looking at gear until the first wipe.
3. Asking the group if they want a SR, so instead they assume it (this also falls back to #1)
4. Brainless tanking, due to their ego and assumption that it is the healers full responsibility to keep the tank alive even if they stand in AoEs and not use their cooldowns, while spamming flash/OP. And yes I've seen this one ALOT.
5. Healers DPSing and not taking note of the tanks life and how much damage they actually take during large pulls.
6. DPS not knowing which skills to use in rotation to actually make for a successful SR.

All of the above (with the exceptions of #4 & #5) actually stem from communication.

This is not to say that all raiders are this terribad, but this is to give you insight from the other side of your question.

Bad groups fail from the start, only skilled groups complete the task, regardless of how many attempts it took to do so.

I appreciate your response, but it is not an answer to the question I posed - and I have a feeling you're sidestepping the question.
A completely unskilled group will fall flat on its face from the get-go.
What I asked is:

Which of these two requires a more skilled group than the other?
-Doing single-pulls, or
-Doing multiple pulls

[Zedd702]

I appreciate your response, but it is not an answer to the question I posed - and I have a feeling you're sidestepping the question.
A completely unskilled group will fall flat on its face from the get-go.
What I asked is:

No... you are just trying to seek an answer you want to hear vs the reality of the bigger picture.

What you want to hear is that SR = more skilled players and that Speedrunning = skill... and that is not the case.

The reality of the matter is that it takes skill to complete a dungeon whether it is speed running, casual mob by mob, or w/e other method.

People can classify speed running as a reckless tactic, which I've seen many different ways of doing speed running. Some require skill, coordination, knowledge of your job/role, and no interruptions in real life. Others just run through all trash mobs sacrificing the tank while the group runs in to the boss and once the tank dies and enemies reset the healer will resurrect the tank and then we can begin the boss fight. The latter method, though reckless, actually requires communication, but lots of players fail at that so they might not have known of that strategy...

What I provided was a proper answer to your question, just because it's not what you want to hear does not make it unacceptable...

[Sousoulsu]

No... you are just trying to seek an answer you want to hear vs the reality of the bigger picture.

What you want to hear is that SR = more skilled players and that Speedrunning = skill... and that is not the case.

The reality of the matter is that it takes skill to complete a dungeon whether it is speed running, casual mob by mob, or w/e other method.

People can classify speed running as a reckless tactic, which I've seen many different ways of doing speed running. Some require skill, coordination, knowledge of your job/role, and no interruptions in real life. Others just run through all trash mobs sacrificing the tank while the group runs in to the boss and once the tank dies and enemies reset the healer will resurrect the tank and then we can begin the boss fight.The latter method, though reckless, actually requires communication, but lots of players fail at that so they might not have known of that strategy...

What I provided was a proper answer to your question, just because it's not what you want to hear does not make it unacceptable...

I posed a simple question to get a simple answer in order to further the discussion past the question of "skill".
I acknowledge what you're saying, but if I'm being honest it's just a lot of fluff.
However, you answered the question amidst the fluff, so moving on:

Since Speedrunning typically requires more skill from the players than single-pulling, it can be assumed that people who opt to single-pull tend to be less skilled than people who opt to speedrun.
/topic closed

Back on the original topic: Why do you, in-particular, dislike speedrunning? =3

10 mobs. You are going to basically tanking the exact same way as with 5 mobs, and the healer is going to have to heal and deal with the greater incoming damage, but, it is more gear saving you, again in my mind, with 10 mobs, than say the skill it requires with 5. Because both the tank and the healer will be doing the exact same things, only the gear reduces the damage, increases health for more buffer, and gives better healing.

Generally speaking, you're right. But I would say it doesn't flatline after 5; but the increase isn't exponential anymore. It just requires the tank to be better at cooldown management and the healer to know when spikes are coming and be aware of what the tank has available.
Large pulls definitely take more skill as well as gear to pull off, but once you have the gear, more skill will let you get away with more.

I think what makes this topic so sore to some people is that they're used to other MMOs, where dungeons are challenging in their own - or can't be steamrolled because trash have mechanics or abilities that make it impossible.
This is not so in XIV.
I think it's a flaw in XIV's dungeon design. A flaw I would like to be alleviated. But as it is now, speedrunning is prevelent in the community. While not at all an exhaustive study:

http://strawpoll.me/3728005/r

shows general community sentiments; and will get slightly more accurate as more people vote on it.

[Zedd702]

Since Speedrunning typically requires more skill from the players than single-pulling, it can be assumed that people who opt to single-pull tend to be less skilled than people who opt to speedrun.
/topic closed

Amusing that you still take it as though I said SR = a more skill group from my latest response... Let me clarify in saying that this is far from the truth. And I will explain why.

1. Speed running requires alot less from a tank other than spamming the their AoE/Cone high enmity attacks/skills, excessive movement (mostly due to not being able to see telegraphs with all the graphics from BLM Fire spam among other attacks) and the occasional popping of CD's to make the team think you know what you are doing with holding hate and mitigating damage.

2. It also demands a lot from the healer, more than they should really have to do and it also requires the healer to play the most on point than Tanks and DPS in SR's. Let me take a moment to touch on #2. Anyone notice that healers are more in demand now than tanks are in queues? I'd say SR teams have a HUGE impact on that because healers want to do more than spam cure every recharge...

3. SR does not teach a player anything, but how to piss off a healer... You cant tell me SR teaches you anything that would be remotely useful for coils. It's a reckless attempt to shave a few minutes off completing the dungeon for people who only care about themselves in farming the most tomes possible, which boils down to preference, not player skill. Nice try though...

Back on the original topic: Why do you, in-particular, dislike speedrunning? =3

I never said I dislike SR to begin with, this shows just how much you paid attention to what I've wrote in this thread. I don't mind SR at the request of my team, but there are days I want to enjoy my game, but I still pull two packs by habit, unless I notice something about team make-up or I feel there might be an issue with combining certain types of enemies in mass pulls.

[Sousoulsu]

Amusing that you still take it as though I said SR = a more skill group from my latest response... Let me clarify in saying that this is far from the truth. And I will explain why.

1. Speed running requires alot less from a tank other than spamming the their AoE/Cone high enmity attacks/skills, excessive movement (mostly due to not being able to see telegraphs with all the graphics from BLM Fire spam among other attacks) and the occasional popping of CD's to make the team think you know what you are doing with holding hate and mitigating damage.
2. It also demands a lot from the healer, more than they should really have to do and it also requires the healer to play the most on point than Tanks and DPS in SR's. Let me take a moment to touch on #2. Anyone notice that healers are more in demand now than tanks are in queues? I'd say SR teams have a HUGE impact on that because healers want to do more than spam cure every recharge...

3. SR does not teach a player anything, but how to piss off a healer... You cant tell me SR teaches you anything that would be remotely useful for coils. It's a reckless attempt to shave a few minutes off completing the dungeon for people who only care about themselves in farming the most tomes possible, which boils down to preference, not player skill. Nice try though...



I never said I dislike SR to begin with, this shows just how much you paid attention to what I've wrote in this thread. I don't mind SR at the request of my team, but there are days I want to enjoy my game, but I still pull two packs by habit, unless I notice something about team make-up or I feel there might be an issue with combining certain types of enemies in mass pulls.

1)Speed running requires the tank to know when to pop which CDs, when to save bigger ones for certain pulls, and shield swiping properly makes some huge pulls possible. Probably not much so anymore with gear, but it's still a skill-dependent trait.

2)I agree that speedrunning is harder to heal than to tank, but that does not diminish that it requires more skill as a player to tank a speedrun than single pulls. "Healers should not have to work so hard" is, frankly, irrelevant to if it requires more skill or not.

3)Dungeon content is different than coil. speedrunning requires a different set of skill than coil. Being good in coil does not mean you are good at speedrunning. Being good at speedrunning does not mean you are good in coil. Different content is different. I've never made any argument that might suggest otherwise.

In dungeon content, it requires more skill to speedrun than to do single pulls. It is not reckless if you do it right. It is not the intended way to tackle the content, but it is definetly not reckless unless the tank overpulls (another tank skill dependent trait).

Everything in this game is gear dependent. Speedruns require both gear and skill. Both help with making a speedrun faster and more successful. You cannot attempt a speedrun unless you have gear. However, I've healed an ilvl 90 tank through the new dungeons and they speedpulled as much as possible. A less skilled tank who doesn't know when to use which cooldowns could not pull that off.


It just seems like you're grasping at straws in order to sidestep admitting that speedruns take more individual skill than single pulls. Which is silly, because if I ask any random person not involved in this discussion, they would agree.

I apologize for mixing you up as someone who does not like speedrunning. It seems we disagree on which is more skill-intensive; not on if speedrunning should be done or not. ^^

[Zedd702]

1)Speed running requires the tank to know when to pop which CDs, when to save bigger ones for certain pulls, and shield swiping properly makes some huge pulls possible. Probably not much so anymore with gear, but it's still a skill-dependent trait.

SR don't really require the use of CD's... I've done SR's with both my 110 WAR & PLD without really using cooldowns at all except on some boss fights or if I herpderp miss an AoE telegraph.

It just seems like you're grasping at straws in order to sidestep admitting that speedruns take more individual skill than single pulls. Which is silly, because if I ask any random person not involved in this discussion, they would agree.

Nope, not grasping straws or sidestepping anything. I'm a realist that sees it for what it is and I don't call a player bad because they don't agree with speedrunning, nor do I force it upon anyone...

I appologize for mixing you up as someone who does not like speedrunning. It seems we disagree on which is more skill-intensive; not on if speedrunning should be done or not. ^^

I've said it once, wait twice, wait three times... Hell I lost count. Anyway I will say it again. SR is governed by gear and is a matter of preference. The ONLY time I'd say it's considered skillful is if the tank that does the SR is at minimal req lvl and applies his/her mind to it and succeeds at doing it as if he/she were overgeared for the specific dungeon.

You cannot attempt a speedrun unless you have gear.

Thank you for proving my point.

[ruskie]

SR don't really require the use of CD's... I've done SR's with both my 110 WAR & PLD without really using cooldowns at all except on some boss fights or if I herpderp miss an AoE telegraph.

I was planing to write something interesting here. But decided against it. *walks away, shaking head in disgust*

if they choose a poor time to e4e (drawing aggro to themselves before tank can get it) - then a speedrun will not be successful.

Only thing that's needed for this to actually work is for the tank to aggro the whole pack instead of a single mob or even just face pull. You grabbed aggro on all? Great I can e4e you the moment I see you coming to a stop(which sadly each tank considers differently). And then I can start to stabilize your HP and after that I can actually maybe holy spam if I feel like doing it(that is up to me and me seeing what you are doing - I've had tanks mass pull then turn off defiance or switch to sword oath - no I will NOT holy carry your arse anymore(yup I'm fed up with mass pullers that then expect to be holy carried)).

Sorry but seen way to many tanks that just face pull or single tag one mob and then go WTF when their HP melts away because I couldn't heal them due to insta aggro. Hell I had tanks tell me not to heal them during pulls - when they ran off with regen still ticking on them.

[Chairman_Meow]

2. It also demands a lot from the healer, more than they should really have to do and it also requires the healer to play the most on point

As a healer I don't see anything wrong with it. It keeps you on your toes. It's more or less a difference between spamming cure every time its up and using cure every 10 seconds over a longer period of time.

3. SR does not teach a player anything, but how to piss off a healer

How to piss off a healer by having them do their job? That's like a DPS complaining about DPS checks. SR teaches you more about how to use your character than regular runs. In fact, regular runs doesn't teach you anything other than how to casually do your job with one hand while alt tabbing out every now and then to look at pictures of cats. As a WHM all I need to do is Divine Seal -> Regen and that's good for the next 20 seconds before I need to cast Regen again then it's back to my cats.

[Iagainsti]

2. It also demands a lot from the healer, also requires the healer to play the most on point than Tanks and DPS in SR's.

3. SR does not teach a player anything, but how to piss off a healer... You cant tell me SR teaches you anything that would be remotely useful for coils.

You're terribad or do not know what you are talking about. My FC SR group the Whm spams Holy in cleric stance. I dodge telegraphs like a boss and have an acute sense of CD timing; bottom line- I self heal; More mobs, better self heal. Back in BrayHM myth grind, we used to run 2 whms for the "Holy Bomb" Overpower, 2xHoly, Fire 2 spam Flare. done

[Iagainsti]

Amusing that you still take it as though I said SR = a more skill group from my latest response... Let me clarify in saying that this is far from the truth. And I will explain why.

1. Speed running requires alot less from a tank other than spamming the their AoE/Cone high enmity attacks/skills, excessive movement (mostly due to not being able to see telegraphs with all the graphics from BLM Fire spam among other attacks) and the occasional popping of CD's to make the team think you know what you are doing with holding hate and mitigating damage.

You either haven't tanked properly before, or have never held said position if you really think that's our job. Stick to your cookie-cutter healing tactics and let the real "think outside the box" players like us Speed Runners break barriers and perform feats outside the gaming norm, bc that's really what a speed run boils down to.