Nin TP Increase: Too Much?

[Viridiana]

How very entitled. I guess the idea of team play is lost on some.

In this case it's lost on the BRD. >_>

[Alistaire]

Thank god those poor nins who were challenging the mnk/mnk meta got put in their place. The incredibly deep and skilled gameplay of 'make sure you keep using your GCDs as a melee DPS' is truly the most skilled play FFXIV has to offer.

By the way, Trick Attack is a 3.3% net increase in total party DPS over not having Trick Attack in the party. That assumes a perfect use case and nobody ever needing to use a DoT during it (TA is a global resist debuff that stacks with other types of resist debuffs, and does not affect damage over time skills, so your Summoners and Bards are basically SoL when you use it.)

That is entirely incorrect. Go test on a dummy, if your dot ticks normally at say 50, then if it's put up while trick attack is on it'll be 55, including that dot's duration after TA falls off.

It's wonderful how many people post #s here (and elsewhere) and thinks that makes their points infallible. If that were the case, nobody would ever fail a math test.

[Leonus]

I'm not speaking out of entitlement...

Your post is gorgeous.

Most brds (in my experience) don't understand that when your melee dps is starving for tp, the best thing for the raid group is to play paeon. (It doesn't even have to be excessively long, just until their next invigorate) Especially if you have more than one. It benefits the brd, melee, and tanks. Too many brds are caught up in their own personal dps numbers to realize that theirs pales in comparison to what you melee SHOULD be doing.

I did math somewhere in a thread. I even put everyone at the same dps and showed that even in a 30 second segment that the dps loss of starved melee is more of a raid dps loss than the blm/smn/brd loosing foes for the same amount of time combined.

The gap widens the longer it goes on, and the only way it shortens is if your casters AND brd can pull ridiculous numbers until your melee get invigorate back. The sad thing is the gap between only ever gets smaller but never even unless you melee dps sucks something terrible. To which point, why are they in your group.

most people say it's just because melee dps want to stroke their epeen. While for some, it may be true, but it truly is better for raid dps.

[Ephier]

Ninja nerfs are a joke. We got a tiny slap on the wrist and people still crying about that. Could have been MUCH worse.

[Aetherdancer]

Ninja nerfs are a joke. We got a tiny slap on the wrist and people still crying about that. Could have been MUCH worse.

The DPS loss from the Kiss changes are a slap on the wrist. The TP cost changes are a slap to any bards who have a Ninja in their party, and the fact that they increased the cost of the NIN reward ability (Aeolian Edge) contradicts every other melee job. The scenario where you compensate for the free damage the NIN gets from a warrior constantly applying Storm's Eye doesn't happen in Final Coil, because a warrior cannot continuously apply both Storm's Eye and Storm's Path, and also keep hate. It would need a 2.22 second GCD in order to do that, and even if it did, it couldn't use Inner Beast or Steel Cyclone without dropping something.

The amount of damage that a Ninja loses from landing Dancing Edge on an enemy that has already dropped the debuff is 26 potency + 10% of your autoattack, which is your best case scenario with a dropped DE debuff. If you land Gust slash without DE up, that's 20 potency +10% of your autoattack. That means that if the Ninja trusts the warrior to keep Storm's Eye up, and the warrior drops Storm's Eye for 2 globals worth of time, the Ninja loses 46 potency + 10% of 2 autos, which is slightly more than 60 potency. 60 potency is the difference between Aeolian Edge and Dancing Edge. If the slashing debuff falls off of a boss for just 4 seconds, the Ninja has already lost the benefit he gained from using Aeolian Edge. The warrior will have lost damage as well, and so will have the paladin.

An OT warrior is able to apply both Storm's Eye and Storm's Path, but both of those abilities do less damage than Butcher's Block. Not to mention, Skull Sunder has 10 more potency than Maim. If your warrior goes OT and drops defiance, there's much more benefit for the DPS of the party to have the Ninja refresh Dancing Edge and allow the warrior to cycle between Storm's Path and Butcher's Block. Ninjas have no problem keeping Dancing Edge refreshed. If Storm's Eye was 25 seconds long, then I could understand adding TP to the cost of Aeolian Edge, but the fact is that it's uncommon for a warrior to be able to keep Storm's Eye up for the Ninja without the Ninja losing DPS due to the warrior dropping Storm's Eye. Considering that your OT PLD should be DPS'ing with Rage of Halone in Sword Stance, both to keep the debuff up and because it's worth more damage, your warrior is gonna want to use as much Butcher's Block as he can to keep the PLD from pulling hate. The 5 seconds increase in the duration of Storm's Eye, from the warriors perspective, is mostly so they are able to use two Inner Beasts in a 20 second span without the debuff falling off. You'd need Storm's Eye and Storm's Path to both be 25 seconds if an MT warrior was to apply them without either of them falling off, and be able to use a single Inner Beast in that window. He'd probably lose hate, anyway. One Butcher's Block combo in a 25 second span isn't enough to hold hate.

[Ephier]

snip.

I'm not sure I see the point of your post. What are you getting at?

[Casper]

I'm not sure I see the point of your post. What are you getting at?

Basically, that in final coil, in a lot of situations, the warrior can't keep up storm eye, so the ninja ends up having to do it, and thus doesn't get the "free" damage of being able to just continue doing aeolian edge. I don't think there is the need to go there to rebute the need for nin nerfs though -- nin were already under mnk for dps, and for utility most likely too (dragon's kick OP), even if on both account it was slightly. Unless there is a mnk lobby working in japan, i really don't understand why nin got nerfed while mnk stayed untouched since mnk was already ahead. And no, mnk is not harder to play or anything, both are equally challenging. It just seems very random, no matter how small the nerfs were, and i don't understand the logic behind the move.

[Aetherdancer]

I'm not sure I see the point of your post. What are you getting at?

Basically, that in final coil, in a lot of situations, the warrior can't keep up storm eye, so the ninja ends up having to do it, and thus doesn't get the "free" damage of being able to just continue doing aeolian edge.

This. Just explaining in detail as to why nerfing Aeolian Edge in TP cost doesn't put NIN in line in new content, because NIN should be using Dancing Edge anyway. I'm mostly annoyed at the math of it all. The only time a warrior can really refresh Storm's Eye for the NIN is in easily healable content. If WAR needs to use Storm's Path, he pretty much can't keep Storm's Eye up. Therefore, NIN will only be using that extra TP in older content.

Aeolian Edge is a reward ability. Just like Bootshine and True Strike are MNK's reward abilities. It's stupid that they're putting an extra TP cost on the ability that does more damage, because no other job has that. Think about Twin Snakes and True Strike. You alternate them based on whether Twin Snakes is up. True Strike is 50 more potency than Twin Snakes, 36% more damage! And what does it cost? 10 less TP. What they're doing to Aeolian Edge... is would be like making True Strike cost 70 TP because it does more damage than Twin Snakes.

[Alistaire]

Aeolian Edge is a reward ability. Just like Bootshine and True Strike are MNK's reward abilities. It's stupid that they're putting an extra TP cost on the ability that does more damage, because no other job has that. Think about Twin Snakes and True Strike. You alternate them based on whether Twin Snakes is up. True Strike is 50 more potency than Twin Snakes, 36% more damage! And what does it cost? 10 less TP. What they're doing to Aeolian Edge... is would be like making True Strike cost 70 TP because it does more damage than Twin Snakes.

But it was *50* tp. And it was kinda hard to deplete TP...on a dummy, let alone real fights with any kind of breaks at all. I'm surprised they didn't up them more.

You can't just look at individual skills either; when balancing you have to look at the full picture. NIN needed some kind of TP increase, this is literally the 2nd lowest way they could have possibly done that.

[Aetherdancer]

But it was *50* tp. And it was kinda hard to deplete TP...on a dummy, let alone real fights with any kind of breaks at all. I'm surprised they didn't up them more.

You can't just look at individual skills either;when balancing you have to look at the full picture. NIN needed some kind of TP increase, this is literally the 2nd lowest way they could have possibly done that.

It's not about how low the TP increase is, it's about the abilities they gave it to. The 2nd lowest would be only giving it to one or the other: Shadow Fang, Aeolian, or Dancing. The lowest would be giving a 10 TP increase to Mutilate, and the 3rd lowest would get giving it to Mutilate and one of the other three. The 4th lowest would be giving it to two of the three combo enders, which is what they're doing. Tied for 4th lowest would be increasing one of these three abilities by 20 TP, which makes sense with Shadow Fang.

I never had a problem with getting a TP cost nerf. Ninja does need it, but giving it to Aeolian Edge is doubly ridiculous. Dancing Edge deserves it more based on their apparent philosophy with the way abilities need to cost, but neither of them should have it at all. With DRG, PLD, and WAR, the most expensive ability in the combo is the first move. It's part of a design philosophy that punishes the need to use the first move more often, like if you have low accuracy. If you whiff the first or second move of a combo, you're punished by having to use the first move, the weakest, and most expensive, just to get your combo started. Making the last move of a combo cost more doesn't make any sense in this regard. Efficient DPS is meant to be rewarded.

Between the 3 jobs, DRG, PLD, and WAR, there are 6 total combos that are 3 hits long. They're all 70 -> 60 -> 60. They wanted it with Ninja too with their 60 -> 50 -> 50. The final hit shouldn't be more expensive than either of the first two hits. If anything, the final hit should be the cheapest. If they bumped the cost of Shadow Fang up to 80, and left everything else alone, everything would be fine and balanced.