Nin TP Increase: Too Much?

[DakenBrunel]

How exactly does the slight increase in NIN tp cost eliminate the utility of Goad? /perplexed

"I'm going to run out of TP so you don't get my TP regen, now BRD lower your damage and play me Paeon" That's about the most selfish argument I've ever heard lol

"I can't cast Eye for an Eye on myself, so guess what tank you're not getting it either"

I'll explain.

Normally, about 30 seconds into the raid, I'll hit my monk with a goad, then i can rotate my goad to the bard. The problem with the new TP hits, ninja is the one running the lowest on tp. I can hit my monk or bard with goad but the problem is, I'm still running low on TP, therefore my goad that i just used doesnt matter because the bard is gonna sing for me, regardless.

Its not selfish, its self explanatory. Its not the fact that we refuse to use it. The fact now is, even if we use it, WE still need the song.

[Atreides]

Huton does affect attack speed so there is no way around it, no matter what you do, dropping Huton is a huge DPS loss.
If it would only affect Skill Speed it would be an option to drop it from time to time when you're getting low on TP, however it does not.
It's almost like telling a monk dropping GL from time to time would help him.

[Izsha]

All you need to know is: does a nin playing while bottomed out on tp loose more net damage than a brd losing 20% damage+opportunity cost of using that mana for foe. If nin bottom out is more raid damage loss than bard playing paeon, then bard should sing. Assuming the following to statements are true then it is actually useless to use goad.(don't know if these statements are true without a lotta math I can't be arsed to do atm)

1. Nin damage drop is > than bard paeon damage drop
2. Nin burns tp at the same rate or faster than other tp jobs in your group.

If both of those statements are true then goad has no purpose except after someone dies or situational (war overpower spam etc). If nin runs out of TP before the bard and it's a dps loss to leave the nin to suffer vs paeon then nin bottoms out, bard casts paeon, bard had more tp than nin to start, goad is superfluous. If those assumptions are not true then goad can be used to make them true. Eg: mnk bottoms out 1st then nin, then bard. Goad mnk to delay paeon until nin bottoms out=net gain in dps via goad.

Just see who bottoms out faster and Calc damage lost vs paeon and you have the answer on goad rotation usefullness. It's not about stroking epeen. It's about raid efficiency and it cuts both ways.

[RinchanNau]

All you need to know is: does a nin playing while bottomed out on tp loose more net damage than a brd losing 20% damage+opportunity cost of using that mana for foe.

Indeed. There is a bit of math involved and the difference might not be huge. But what I can say for certain is one of the better changes we made during our t13 progression a month ago was having me not use half a bar of MP for paeon in phase 2. Instead we decided that waiting for a full MP bar for Foe's would be better. It was one of the few changes that had us going from wiping at 2-3% from enrage to not even seeing the enrage Gigaflare cast on our first kill. Obviously the difference was not that alone, but we did observe a noticeable increase in raid DPS. This is with a MNK, NIN, BRD, BLM config. In a MNK + MNK or MNK + DRG config Paeon would be far more worth it. MNK + NIN? Not so worth it. 2 casters? Not so worth it.

[Aiurily]

snip

replying with anecdotal points isn't really helping your case, more so when you aren't even sure if that was the difference. in an add phase situation it's somewhat open to debate, yes; but paeon for 2 melee has always been better than foes for 1 caster in a dummy tier fight

and proper TP management? you realize nin is a class where their dots have the best TP per potency values right? lol. feel free to give ideas out for proper TP management. their main chain (se gs ae) has 3.94 potency per tp, their slash debuff chain (sg gs de) has 3.81 potency per TP, while mutilate has 4.5 potency per TP, and the shadow fang combo has 4.92 potency per TP. tell me your idea of "proper TP management" from these numbers; there's the given of the perfect invigorate and using invigorate on CD afterwards, but i'm sure that was a given. if you have any other ideas, you should enlighten everyone~

anyway, with NIN being almost at MNK level of tp drain, goad's use right now is basically for the BRD if he BV's a paeon and actually needs that TP, or for the MNK so they can use fracture in their rotations. deaths and physical aoe are other things you'd use goad on, but they really shouldn't be a factor

[RinchanNau]

replying with anecdotal points isn't really helping your case, more so when you aren't even sure if that was the difference. in an add phase situation it's somewhat open to debate, yes; but paeon for 2 melee has always been better than foes for 1 caster in a dummy tier fight

and proper TP management? you realize nin is a class where their dots have the best TP per potency values right? lol. feel free to give ideas out for proper TP management. their main chain (se gs ae) has 3.94 potency per tp, their slash debuff chain (sg gs de) has 3.81 potency per TP, while mutilate has 4.5 potency per TP, and the shadow fang combo has 4.92 potency per TP. tell me your idea of "proper TP management" from these numbers; there's the given of the perfect invigorate and using invigorate on CD afterwards, but i'm sure that was a given. if you have any other ideas, you should enlighten everyone~

My case is doing just fine. Thank you though. Paeon for two melee isn't always better because in this case one of them is NIN so the MNK isn't starved if Goad is used properly.

What is there to enlighten you about? You can talk down to me all you'd like, sure. It's not as though I've never mained a melee job. I've been a DRG, SMN, and BRD main for coil. TP management involves modifying your rotation whenever necessary to conserve TP. It does mean you lose a little DPS, but the idea is that the DPS you lose is less than the DPS lost by losing Foe's uptime as well as the 20% damage reduction to your BRD. You don't just run yourself to zero and stare at the screen completely baffled. You plan out ahead of time when you do in the case you are at 300 or less TP with Invigorate not coming for a while.

Do you feel as though SMN should ALWAYS use fester too and never conserve their MP? And beg the BRD for Ballad at all times even when the healers don't need it? Resource management is a great thing to learn.

[Aiurily]

My case is doing just fine. Thank you though. Paeon for two melee isn't always better because in this case one of them is NIN so the MNK isn't starved if Goad is used properly.

What is there to enlighten you about? You can talk down to me all you'd like, sure. It's not as though I've never mained a melee job. I've been a DRG, SMN, and BRD main for coil. TP management involves modifying your rotation whenever necessary to conserve TP. It does mean you lose a little DPS, but the idea is that the DPS you lose is less than the DPS lost by losing Foe's uptime as well as the 20% damage reduction to your BRD. You don't just run yourself to zero and stare at the screen completely baffled. You plan out ahead of time when you do in the case you are at 300 or less TP with Invigorate not coming for a while.

Do you feel as though SMN should ALWAYS use fester too and never conserve their MP? And beg the BRD for Ballad at all times even when the healers don't need it? Resource management is a great thing to learn.

so you're implying that adjusting your rotation so you "conserve tp" is better than budgeting your tp to get the most potency out of it? that's the most dumb, ignorant thing i've read this week, and i've read a lot of dumb things. let me put it in a simple way that can be understood

you can use 100 skills that do 1 damage each and cost 1 tp, or you can use 2 skills that do 100 damage each but cost 50 tp each. you're basically arguing that the first is superior, that it's something every melee dps should do for the benefit of the raid. what a joke.

of course you're going to lose dps because you're tp starved, you don't need to point that out. but "modifying your rotation", in the way that you imply (to conserve tp?), means you'd use the cheapest TP skills available. but look at the numbers; the cheapest TP skill chain for NIN is slash debuff chain, 60/50/50 for 610 total potency. 610 potency for 160 TP, do you realize that is the worst TP to potency ratio for this class? lol... if you're going to be TP starved and you know it, the ideal role to take is to make sure each and every point of TP you use is worth it; and for NIN, doing their basic rotation already fulfills that. keeping their TP efficient DoTs up while using their TP efficient 123 combo and letting warriors apply slash debuff; that is the most efficient use of TP for a nin, and any NIN player with a reliable warrior is already doing that, regardless of their TP number. so again, tell me, what would a nin who is already doing this, do to attain "proper tp management"?

you're 99% focused on your own brd dps rather than raid dps contribution, don't delude yourself. in conveniently mentioning how the mnk doesn't need paeon because of goad, you exclude your own tp usage, and optimal usage of the excess tp from the mnk as well. alternating goad between both of you isn't gonna make you both not need paeon eventually; even if we were to argue the case of paeon for 1 melee vs foes for 1 caster, you could literally do simple napkin math and figure out that the latter is worse for overall dps.

[Leonus]

Yes, a GOOD melee dps bottoming out on tp is more raid damage lost than the brd sacrificing their 20% damage. In fact, if you have 2 melee bottoming out on tp, it is more raid damage lost than the brd loosing 20% AND the casters loosing foes combined. The longer the melee dps are bottomed out, the difference becomes even bigger.

I don't know why people think it's melee dps trying to stroke their e-peen, it always feels like brd is trying to stroke theirs by keeping their numbers up and ignoring melee dps, which in the end should be outperforming the brd anyway.

Edit: it helps when everyone is able to perform as close to optimal as possible. Letting melee dps bottom out is not good.

Nins should still Goad to prolong The use of paeon as long as possible.

[DakenBrunel]

In tonights Final coil run, I was floored way before the monk in our party. Not only has SE nerfed our TP costs, they have essentially nerfed BRDs damage in a mnk-nin config. Before, I could goad my monk 30 seconds in, essentially delaying the need for paeon early. Now, no matter what happens, whether I goad the monk or bard, I still floor before either of them, making goad useless unless a tp resource party member dies.

I was sure that ninja was made more tp efficient to help this problem, but with the nerfs, its only worse.

[Xisin]

What the guy above me said is pretty much it. The tp nerfs make some points of the job moot. Called it when I read the changes on dragoon though, DRG >=MNK > NIN in hierarchy now should have just gave nins a minor damage reduction and called it a day. NIN is prob the worst off of the three melees now unfortunately.