Nin TP Increase: Too Much?

[Aetherdancer]

That nerf. Lemme calculate.

Suiton and Raiton are only single target abilities that lose damage.


With Raiton, you'll lose anywhere from 250-350 damage per minute, as you use the ability once a minute and crits are a thing.



With Suiton, you'll lose anywhere from 125-175 damage per minute, as you also use the ability once a minute, and crits are a thing.

That's 375 - 525 damage per minute. That's 6 - 9 DPS total. Not a big deal, but then you have the TP costs, which make Ninja more reliant on Paeon. I'll definitely be asking for it more.

Shadow Fang is 10 more TP every 20-ish seconds. Aeolian Edge is also 10 more TP every 20-ish seconds. That's 60 TP a minute I'm losing, 240 over 4 minutes. I'll feel just as starved as Monk will, using Invigorate as intelligently as possible. I'm usually around 200 TP when I use my 2nd Invigorate. I'll be fighting my TP to get to my 2nd Invigorate now, and I definitely won't be getting anywhere close to my 3rd.

This will prevent the Ninja from ever giving the Bard his Goad, because Ninja will be relying on the Bard to sing for him. In a MNK-NIN melee config, this will essentially change which melee is actually more reliant on Paeon.

If the Warrior volunteers to use Storm's Eye forever, then it costs the Ninja an extra 30 TP every 20 seconds instead of 20 TP. That's 360 more TP drained in a 4 minute encounter. It's essentially the same as letting a Monk use Fracture whenever it wants. The tradeoff isn't actually fair because abilities aren't the only source of melee damage.

Aeolian Edge is gonna be 60 TP for 320 potency. That's 5.333 potency per point TP.
Dancing Edge is 50 TP for 260 potency. That's 5.2 potency per point TP.

These numbers would look fair, like the ability to use Aeolian Edge is a fair trade of TP for damage, since it's more damage per point of TP. But if you consider autoattacks being 100 potency, and getting one every time you use an ability:

Damage during Aeolian Edge will be 420 potency.
Damage during Dancing Edge will be 360 potency.

420 damage over 60 TP is 7 potency per point of TP.

360 damage over 50 TP is 7.2 potency per point of TP.

Now it looks like using Dancing Edge is more efficient. It is. Don't forget the fact that Dancing Edge has a slashing resistance debuff attached to it. What this means is, that it's not efficient to run yourself out of TP using Aeolian Edge. Of course if you have an excess of TP, go ahead. What it means to have an excess of TP is that you're not gonna run out, like in a 3 minute fight, not that you have a large amount. It's not worth the Bard's damage to refresh TP drained by using excess Aeolian Edge. You may as well always use Dancing Edge because the amount of extra Paeon your Bard will have to sing isn't worth the extra damage you're doing.

This is in a 4 man scenario only. If the Bard is refreshing the TP of another melee, that's a whole bunch of extra usefulness that his Paeon gives, so he should obviously use it. Bard, however, isn't going to be using as much TP as the melee, so there will be "wasted" TP in the form of the Bard singing while at max TP if the Ninja asks for Paeon just for him.

tl;dr - They should have given Shadow Fang an 20 extra TP cost, and not given Aeolian Edge an extra cost, because math. Also, Monk should incorporate Fracture into his rotation, because Ninja is gonna be demanding that kinda TP anyway. RIP Bard damage.

Proposed Change: Do not increase the cost of Aeolian Edge by 10. If a TP cost must be imposed, increase it by 5. The extra TP saved can be applied to Shadow Fang. Make it cost 75 if a 5 TP cost is applied to Aeolian Edge, or make it cost 80 if Aeolian Edge is spared a TP cost increase.

[RinchanNau]

What? I am a BRD main and even if I need to use Paeon more there is zero reason to not give me goad.

In our group I generally get goad about 25s in and from there it rotates between me and our MNK every time it is off CD. Considering the ridiculous amount of skill speed I currently have to deal with its very helpful even if I have to play paeon for 30s once in a while. BRD TP costs plus my GCD currently being 2.36s. I have to manage my TP very well in FCoB. It's fun.

Even if I had no skill speed on my build Goad would be very useful. Who else are you going to give it to? MNK every single time? That'd just be ridiculous. As awesome as MNK DPS can be compared to BRD I would guess giving one MNK every Goad would be a raid DPS loss compared to alternating.

Also, learn some self control. It's really not difficult to modify your rotation when you're getting lower on TP. Helps keep things interesting instead of being able to go all out 100% for 10 min straight.

[Mister-Wonderful]

The patch isn't even out yet. Calm yourself.

[Jamillion]

The patch isn't even out yet. Calm yourself.

^^^THIS^^^

[Bixby]

But if you consider autoattacks being 100 potency, and getting one every time you use an ability:

Auto-attack potency varies with weapon delay, and is standardized to 100 per 3 seconds. With a 2.4 delay weapon (Dreadwyrm), your auto-attacks have a potency of 80. With a 2.56 delay weapon (Augmented Ironworks), your auto-attacks have a potency of 85.33. Close to (but not quite) one per action either way, so let's just keep that assumption.

But assuming you keep DE up (and you're talking about dropping AE, not DE), your auto-attack damage won't change whether you're using AE or not. There's no reason to add auto-attacks into the potency per TP for each skill. The auto-attacks won't change.

AE = 320/60 = 5.3333 potency/TP.
DE = 260/50 = 5.2 potency/TP

Aeolian is still both more damaging and more efficient.

[Arkenne]

Sadly, I can't agree with the OP,

The TP increase in these 2 skills will at least make it feel like the Ninja is actually consuming a resource...
Unlike MNK or DRG, the TP on NIN feels infinite...

MNK can last around 5 mins by using the 3 DoTs (including Fracture) by timing Invigorate, so, I see no reason Ninja can't do the same. Besides Mudra makes you stop every 20 seconds and depending on what you need and the lag effects it'll take 1 to 4 seconds to perform, which in converse results in TP recoverying without losses.

This is definitely something we will not see until the patch comes out tho.

[RinchanNau]

Sadly, I can't agree with the OP,

The TP increase in these 2 skills will at least make it feel like the Ninja is actually consuming a resource...
Unlike MNK or DRG, the TP on NIN feels infinite...

MNK can last around 5 mins by using the 3 DoTs (including Fracture) by timing Invigorate, so, I see no reason Ninja can't do the same

Yep. Sounds fair to me. I think costs are very reasonable on MNK. Could be slightly lower on DRG, but with their upcoming buff it may balance out well. NIN can go quite a while. On the other hand my BRD can't even last to the 2nd invigorate. 1000 TP to 0 in under 2 min with my current skill speed. When I finally get BiS drops it'll be around 3:45 which is fair.

On all DPS jobs that aren't BLM you just need to learn to manage your resources and optimize for the encounter. It's not a bad thing.

[Atreides]

Sadly, I can't agree with the OP,

The TP increase in these 2 skills will at least make it feel like the Ninja is actually consuming a resource...
Unlike MNK or DRG, the TP on NIN feels infinite...

MNK can last around 5 mins by using the 3 DoTs (including Fracture) by timing Invigorate, so, I see no reason Ninja can't do the same. Besides Mudra makes you stop every 20 seconds and depending on what you need and the lag effects it'll take 1 to 4 seconds to perform, which in converse results in TP recoverying without losses.

This is definitely something we will not see until the patch comes out tho.

And if a Monk happens to raid with a Ninja he will have an endless resource too (Goad) while the Ninja runs into TP problems. :/
Monks already do more damage.
While I can life with the nerfs, I still don't see how it was necessary, in my eyes they only listened to the cries of the people who don't even have the slightest idea how Ninja actually works. :/

[Arkenne]

In my eyes they only listened to the cries of the people who don't even have the slightest idea how Ninja actually works. :/

Well, they specifically said they didnt want to break the class, so it would be slight adjustments...
And then I guess it came to this, a way to say "something was done" and see if it apeases those complaining a bit (not like they will ever die out)

In any case they aren't class breaking changes... I still think I'll be able to Sprint as a NIN every now and then unlike with MNK or DRG :|

[Aiurily]

the only reason ninja was good at TP sustain was mostly because laggy mudras would clip into their gcds

if they ever implement a fix, with these tp changes, i think nin might tp starve faster than monk if they're not applying de lol