Nin TP Increase: Too Much?

[Psykotsu]

the only reason ninja was good at TP sustain was mostly because laggy mudras would clip into their gcds

if they ever implement a fix, with these tp changes, i think nin might tp starve faster than monk if they're not applying de lol

Even without this "lag", 3-step mudras would still clip into your gcd and that's why Ninjas go 5 minutes on a dummy instead of around 4 like the other 2 dps.

[Arkenne]

hrm... well, that is if they ever implement a fix for it...

[Zeviand]

And if a Monk happens to raid with a Ninja he will have an endless resource too (Goad) while the Ninja runs into TP problems. :/
Monks already do more damage.
While I can life with the nerfs, I still don't see how it was necessary, in my eyes they only listened to the cries of the people who don't even have the slightest idea how Ninja actually works. :/

If you're giving all your goads to your monk you're doing something wrong, unless of course you don't have a bard in the group. For every FCOB encounter I follow the same formula. First goad goes to the bard roughly a minute into the encounter (to prolonge the use of his invig) and then the monk roughly 4 minutes into the encounter. This means the bard doesn't need to sing until roughly 5 minutes into the fight, which means more dps on every boss. Don't think it'll change much after the patch, but we'll just have to wait and see.

[Aetherdancer]

If you're giving all your goads to your monk you're doing something wrong, unless of course you don't have a bard in the group. For every FCOB encounter I follow the same formula. First goad goes to the bard roughly a minute into the encounter (to prolonge the use of his invig) and then the monk roughly 4 minutes into the encounter. This means the bard doesn't need to sing until roughly 5 minutes into the fight, which means more dps on every boss. Don't think it'll change much after the patch, but we'll just have to wait and see.

Ridiculous idea to ever give the 1st Goad to the Bard. They use TP less quickly.

There isn't enough Goad on a single NIN to prevent the use of Paeon. You'll eventually have to sing it for the NIN.

Since NIN is going to be spending TP more quickly than the Bard, there's no reason to give Goad to the Bard. When the NIN or the MNK get low on TP, the Bard should sing a Paeon. Giving TP to the Bard doesn't excuse him from playing Paeon. The NIN needs TP too. The first Goad needs to be used in a way that delays the need to sing Paeon. The MNK is usually the first to run out of TP, so Paeon would first be sung at the MNK's request. If the MNK gets the first Goad, you've successfully saved DPS by delaying Paeon.

If I spend TP more quickly than the Bard, he's going to be playing Paeon long before he needs the TP himself. It's absolutely ridiculous to give Goad to the Bard, especially since Bard's TP -> Damage ratio is smaller than that of any melee DPS. I'd rather the Bard be low on TP than a tank, since at least tanks needs their rotations uninterrupted to successfully keep hate. (If MT is low on TP, the OT might need to hold back on his own DPS to keep from stealing)

After the TP nerf, Goad is mostly going to be useful for granting TP to a revived player. Since Paeon is getting sung for the NIN now, Goad will only be useful on jobs that run out of TP faster than NIN. In multi-target scenarios where the Bard will be multi-dotting several adds over and over, and might run out of TP faster than me, that is when I will give TP to the Bard.



Think about Monk. Monk has 3 stances and each stance offers a choice of ability to use. If the boss has DK on it already, the Monk should use Bootshine in Opo-opo, which is not even a bit more expensive, but offers a DPS increase in the form of a guaranteed crit. It's also superior to Dragon Kick in another regard, in that when opening into your first non-stance opo-opo ability, it doesn't require a directional in order to achieve max potency of 150, while Dragon Kick will not be 150 potency unless it's from the flank. It's very situational (once per fight, mostly) but Bootshine is a safer choice to make as your opening opo-opo ability because when a boss is turning, you may not be able to easily land an attack on the flank.

Think about Raptor stance. If you don't have Twin Snakes up, you use it, but if you do, you should use True Strike, which is not only more damage, even when it's not directional and Twin Snakes is, but it is CHEAPER too.

A good Monk never lets Demolish fall off for more than a tick. If you have Demolish up on an enemy, then you should use Snap Punch. The difference is, if you're not going to refresh Demolish, you have the opportunity to do a 180 potency attack, instead of the 70 Demolish initial hit. The abilities cost the same, but the difference is that each secondary ability (Bootshine, True Strike, Snap Punch) becomes WAY better to use than the primary abilities (Dragon Kick, Twin Snakes, Demolish) once the primary ability's effect is already applied.

Aeolian Edge does more damage for more TP now. Even if it is more efficient than Dancing Edge, after Dancing Edge is already applied, it's nowhere near as efficient as Monk secondary abilities once their primaries are already applied.

Shadow Fang is 440 potency. It's not amazing because it requires Spinning Edge, and the Spinning Edge -> Shadow Fang combo (590) is less DPS per ability than Mutilate (360) because the time it takes to get Shadow Fang off is 2 GCD's, so the potency of Shadow Fang combo per ability is 295. Still, Shadow Fang is more than enough damage for a higher TP cost to be justified.

A secondary option I have considered for tampering with Aeolian Edge is increasing the damage done by Aeolian Edge but decreasing the damage done by Dancing Edge. Lowering Dancing Edge to 250 and increasing Aeolian Edge to 330 would broaden the efficiency gap enough for Aeolian Edge to be used undisputedly every time you reach the 3rd hit of your combo and Dancing Edge is already applied.

Even Dragoon has primary and secondary abilities. The TTT combo is 680 potency, and the Chaos Thrust is 600 initial plus 300 DoT for 900 potency. Having Disembowel + Chaos Thrust up enables the DRG to use the TTT combo, which is 80 more potency you are rewarded with being able to do as a result of having the Chaos Thrust combo up. Additionally, the damage is mostly backloaded onto Full Thrust, which is fantastic for Life Surge's auto crit. The efficiency of their secondary combo is great once the initial combo is set up, and it costs no more TP.

What they're doing with Aeolian Edge is like adding 10 TP to True Strike because it hurts so much more. Actually, it'd be closer to adding 20 TP to it simply because True Strike is already 10 TP cheaper than Twin Snakes. It's like adding 10 TP to Full Thrust. It's like adding 10 TP to Bootshine, or adding 10 TP to Snap Punch. There are other ways to balance NIN TP consumption than increasing the cost of their reward ability. Every other reward ability in the game either costs the same or is cheaper, and is much more efficient to use once their primary has been applied.

[Zeviand]

Ridiculous idea to ever give the 1st Goad to the Bard. They use TP less quickly.

And I stopped reading right there. As someone who's mained both bard and monk I can say that bards absolutely use more tp than monk, especially if he's taking advantage of straighter shot procs and applying dots as soon as they drop. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, it seems to be working up through t13, and pushing 4 bennus in t12!

[Mardel]

And I stopped reading right there. As someone who's mained both bard and monk I can say that bards absolutely use more tp than monk, especially if he's taking advantage of straighter shot procs and applying dots as soon as they drop. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, it seems to be working up through t13, and pushing 4 bennus in t12!

Yep... no matter how good your monk is the goad rotation should be. Bard > (Other Melee) > Bard (or someone who died). Grats you now learned how to goad properly!

Reasoning: The time bard has to sing paeon is time he could be singing foe for the mage/ninja. That or they could be recovering MP for a ballad that will be needed in a future. This means... the benefit of giving it to a monk first does not out weigh the loss of -20% brd damage + foe requiem.

TLDR: 3 benefit vs 1 by using my goad rotation.

[Aetherdancer]

And I stopped reading right there. As someone who's mained both bard and monk I can say that bards absolutely use more tp than monk, especially if he's taking advantage of straighter shot procs and applying dots as soon as they drop. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, it seems to be working up through t13, and pushing 4 bennus in t12!

Literally never, ever seen a bard use more TP than a monk. All you're saying is that YOUR bard uses more TP than YOUR monk. That could be for any number of reasons, maybe you suck at monk. I'll tell you however, that MY monk uses more TP than MY bard. (Maybe I suck at bard. *hint hint I don't*) You show me a bard that uses more TP than anyone else in his party, and I'll show you a bard who gets my first goad. I'm not stupid.

And you can shove it with your talk of pushing 4 bennus like you think that makes you better. My group pushes 4 bennus as well, without limit break. That was last week. Highest DPS order NIN > MNK > SMN > BRD.

Yep... no matter how good your monk is the goad rotation should be. Bard > (Other Melee) > Bard (or someone who died). Grats you now learned how to goad properly!

Reasoning: The time bard has to sing paeon is time he could be singing foe for the mage/ninja. That or they could be recovering MP for a ballad that will be needed in a future. This means... the benefit of giving it to a monk first does not out weigh the loss of -20% brd damage + foe requiem.

TLDR: 3 benefit vs 1 by using my goad rotation.

Delaying Paeon allows the bard to freely sing either of his other songs. Why do you think I goad the monk? He's the first person to need Paeon. If my bard needed TP first, I'd goad him instead. That doesn't happen. That never happens. At this point, what we're arguing about is who uses TP faster. It seems that both of your parties have a bard that uses TP faster that anyone else, but that's not the case with mine.

If I am low on TP and my bard is using Foe, I'm not giving him goad anymore. In that case, I could save it just in case there's a death. Just because the bard has 500 TP doesn't excuse him from playing Paeon, MAYBE unless you have two mages in your party and they both have raging strikes available. I could understand starving your melee DPS in that situation, but you're suggesting that the Ninja is meant to just starve altogether. At some point, the PLD and the WAR are gonna want Paeon too. Just because playing Paeon isn't an instant 10% increase in the DPS on your melees doesn't mean it's not worth playing. It's about intelligently managing resources. If giving 30 TP a second to each physical damager in your party wasn't worth losing 20% of your damage, then Paeon would never get played. Bard is the lowest DPS job in the game, even with a DRG to throw out Disembowel. 20% cut off of their DPS is much less than the DPS lost by a starving melee.

[Zephyranthes]

Change Goad so that you can use it on yourself. Problem fixed! <.<

Anyway, a good player with a stable connection will only have a very small delay on using mudras. 2 seconds at most with the animation included every 20 seconds. I have to agree with the TP increase sort of being too much.

[Shurrikhan]

With goad unchanged the Ninja TP nerf seems like a bigger loss to Bard dps than Ninja's. If Ninja TP was increased and the Goad CD (and effect, proportionately) was reduced and the ability made self-targetable, then Ninja would be level with the other jobs as just another rotated target for Goad, with more generally use and flexibility through the party (no "near-unlimited" resource for Nin but greater support for party rotationally and situationally). Until then, it's just more Paeon (while the Bard is already TP-capped or with Goad being saved only for rez emergencies)...

Still, given that in FC i130 sets, almost all physical dps can use sub-38 Skill Speed sets (Ninja having the most obligatory SS at 87; DRG at 0) and that SS is inferior to all but Monk (still only when in high numbers), only a SS Monk is really going to stand out in terms of TP-consumption. A bard will drain faster than most classes, slightly. (A MT War will drain more slowly than a MT PLD, OT roles about the same w/o Stoneskin use.) Monk and especially Ninja (post-nerf), if without substantial Mudra delay, are probably going to lead TP consumption post-nerf.

I guess it really comes down to how you want Ninja to function in the party, but I can't really see the TP nerf as a nerf to the NIN itself, nor do I see why a Monk-speed attacker can't have Monk TP costs.

[Aetherdancer]

Shurrikhan, NIN DPS isn't actually the best in the game. Monk has always beaten them. Now that we'll be losing roughly 6-9 DPS, we're going to be further outclassed by Monk, which isn't a bad thing. There has to be a highest DPS job, and Monk is just that. The thing that makes NIN so valuable is that they grant TP, and didn't really need any in return. They removed the need to play so much Paeon. They're increasing TP costs to remove that relative value, so other melees begin to look more attractive.

Doesn't change the fact that a double NIN comp is still better than anything else. NIN will synergize with itself even better now out of the necessity for more TP. Two NIN can rotate their Goads to prevent themselves, their bard, and a tank from ever running out of TP. The new TP costs won't change that, and it won't change that a single NIN can be another NIN's Dancing Edge bitch. With the incoming buffs to Dragoon though, the extra damage they'll give bard plus their own buffed damage could be enough to choose one over a NIN, if your Bard does enough DPS.

I believe the best melee config is going to be NIN-NIN or MNK-DRG after the patch hits. Just speculation.