Let Players Speed Run Again

[SpookyGhost]

I think you might be blowing that well out of proportion. Especially when you consider that's ALL there is between the first boss and second, minus 2 sets of 3 trash mob pulls. A good party can shred right through them with minimal time lost, so it's really a bit of a moot point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwm5CzqTJ_Q#t=1406

It's literally 2 trash mobs blocking the path. Why is the door there? Because they want us to clear 2 trash mobs, with 0 mechanics, and then proceed on to the next room (the next room is fine, bare in mind). Why...? Why is this a thing? It takes very little time to burn down 2 mobs, but what is the point in that stop gap? It's only purpose is to make sure you clear those 2 trash mobs before you proceed onto the next ones, which is what this entire thread is all about: the unnecessary walls. I feel like this one is THE most unnecessary because, again, it's 2 mobs that do absolutely nothing. At least the walls in Qarn have a monster that is supposed to have a "mechanic" blocking the way, Snowcloak you either deal with waves of trash/one trash mob with "mechanics" and you can pull large before you get to the wall there. That's not ideal, but it is significantly better than a wall where you fight 2 mobs that have absolutely 0 mechanics.

You could also try reading the post I was quoting, the one that recommends making the walls interesting if they're going to be there at all. Since that was sort of what I was expanding on, using an example of a room with absolutely 0 mechanics, just (again) 2 trash mobs that do nothing but die.

[Zedd702]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwm5CzqTJ_Q#t=1406

It's literally 2 trash mobs blocking the path. Why is the door there?

You could also try reading the post I was quoting, the one that recommends making the walls interesting if they're going to be there at all. Since that was sort of what I was expanding on, using an example of a room with absolutely 0 mechanics, just (again) 2 trash mobs that do nothing but die.

Same could be said about the original Sastasha at this same point, not once but twice is blocked by a (I don't want to call him a boss, but w/e) and the two trash adds. I look at them as Guards. You don't walk through a secured checkpoint without guards, do you? That's pretty much what those guys are. In order to pass that spot, you have to get pass the guards to proceed, otherwise turn back and leave the dungeon...

Would it make you feel better if they dropped a key?

[SpookyGhost]

words

Sastasha NM is a lvl 15 dungeon. Sorry for thinking things might get a bit better at lvl 50. My complaint isn't that they don't drop "a key" (literally said that nowhere, you're talking pure conjecture, don't even know why I'm responding this tbqh), my complaint is that it's 2 mobs that do literally nothing in front of a door that doesn't let you proceed until you beat those 2 mobs. It's really horrible dungeon design and I really don't understand why everyone is excusing it.

If you had the choice between:

1.) 2 mobs that did literally nothing but auto attacks, are squishy as hell, in front of a door that blocks you from proceeding or
2.) 2 mobs that had mechanics you had to deal with that required some semblance of coordination that blocked the path to the next area

which would you rather have? Would you really feel like those 2 mobs held any merit if they did nothing but auto attacks? Why are they special? Why are they the only ones guarding this door? And if they were in charge of it, they should at least do something more than auto attack you. Surely, even the First Mate that is summoned after you kill all the trash in the next room is better fit for guarding this door, if not something more powerful. Am I wrong? Do people feel fine with having a wall guarded by 2 trash enemies that do literally nothing? Does no one want to at least have some challenge in these dungeons if we're not meant to speedrun them? And I'm not talking about even Coil1 level mechanics here, just some sort of "mini boss" guarding the stop signs, something that felt WORTH the time you have to sit there for.

more words

I'm complaining about 2 mobs that serve no purpose but to slow down the time it takes to get from boss B to boss C. While I think trash in general is just as the name implies, some of them actually have mechanics you have to adhere to (Tonberry Stalkers in WP, most of the trash in Lost City, most of the trash in Pharos Sirius, pre-nerf wasps in Qarn NORMAL MODE, etc. etc.). I would actually like it, if I'm forced to stop, to have a little bit of challenge or at least a slight bit of difficulty. Call me insane, but being forced to stop, kill 2 trash mobs who do absolutely nothing lest we forget, and then proceed onward just feels like horrible pacing by the dungeon designers. The next room is fine, but this room just seems... completely pointless. It's not really much of an improvement, but as a counter example there's a room in Snowcloak where it's literally (I believe) 2 dogs and 1 ice bomb. The bomb can explode and do large damage if stood inside of. The fact that that is better than this kind of speaks volumes.

Anyway, "missing the trees for the forest" isn't how that idiom goes but I do understand what you're saying. However, I'm not saying that "THIS IS BAD THEREFORE EVERYTHING IS BAD". I'm saying this thing is bad and is one of the examples where they put absolutely no effort into the trash before the wall. They have put work into other trash, such as the deathdancers or whatever they are that get healed by the spumes as you said. Those are great, they aren't exactly what I'd want but they serve a purpose and make you feel like you've overcame a small obstacle and can now move onto the next one. If that was consistent, I wouldn't be complaining. I don't really care about speedrunning dungeons, Snowcloak as-is is quick enough for me, and while I don't think suicidal tanks should result in SE putting up walls in the dungeon - I can understand why that would be the easiest choice to deal with that issue. Basically, if I can't go fast, I'd at least like to have some fun along the way - that a bad thing or something? Does no one want fun now? Kinda confusing when people are just fine with 2 random trash mobs that do nothing, but are so against speedrunning.

[Zedd702]

Hot air

Firstly... I answered your why this why that. wah wah wah wah WAAHHH comment. And it's painfully obvious you refused to accept the answer and you know what? That's perfectly fine.

To answer your next paragraph regarding choices. I'd rather the dungeon stay as is. And no, I'm not saying it to be an asshole. I like the dungeon and the way it was designed. What you are complaining of is very minimal that this thread literally serves no purpose tbqh...

The two trash at the door serve a purpose and I will say it again, but this time in bold letters so you don't miss it. They. Are. Guards.

Do you act this way when a celebrity is guarded by bodyguards and is walking about in public, but you think you should be able to approach him/her and have a conversation with them?

[SpookyGhost]

Do you act this way when a celebrity is guarded by bodyguards and is walking about in public, but you think you should be able to approach him/her and have a conversation with them?

This example makes literally no sense in this context, but I'll give you one that works better:

2 guards in front of a safe at a bank. You are a thief who is trying to steal what's inside the safe. You are a really horrible thief, so instead of sneaking past them or whatever, you run straight up to them and try to fight them.

Now, in this scenario, do you expect the guards to just auto attack you? Were they hired for this job because they're completely incompetent? Nah, they're probably pretty proficient at ensuring that the safe is shut tight. So, I assume they'd be a bit more... mechanics based. Maybe instead of just gently slapping you, they pull out their guns and start firing at you. In the real world this would require you think on the fly as to not die, but in a game this would be replaced with a "mechanic". Even in the game scenario where it's part of a crew of pirates, you wouldn't stick two random guys in front of the door to the chamber of the Kraken. As an easy example, there is a mob in the very next room that can chain a party member and then cast an AOE. This would've been a good idea in the 2-man room, but instead we have auto attacks.

Also I'd like to say I do like the rest of the dungeon, it's not fantastic or anything but it was pretty good the first time I ran through it. The first and second bosses are fantastic and I hope we get more bosses like that in future 4man dungeons. This part of it just stood out for me, as did the small room in Snowcloak. It is a small complaint, but does that somehow make it pointless? Nah, I don't think it does really. Most requests SE gets are "quality of life" changes, and usually when they're implemented a lot of people are happy about it. I'd be happy if they just made the walls consistently interesting.

You did answer my questions, but they weren't really... answers. You kinda just said "well, the original had 2 mobs, clearly the HM should have 2 mobs as well because blah blah blah guards blah blah blah". I get that they're guards, but maybe the guards in the HM shouldn't be equally as weak as the ones in NM.

[Zedd702]

This example makes literally no sense in this context, but I'll give you one that works better:

It made perfect sense tbqf... basically I'm stating do you whine about not getting through when there are guards around your destination? Be it celebrity, produce aisle, bathroom w/e...

The whole dungeon is littered with guards that protect or are supposed to prevent you and your team from getting to the boss... That is its purpose. Plain and simple.

Also you go from complaining that the shut door is what prevents the speed run to the guards that take 2-3 seconds to put down to now requesting you want them to be tougher to further slow your speed run?

Now what doesn't make sense?

Oh and...

You did answer my questions, but they weren't really... answers. You kinda just said "well, the original had 2 mobs, clearly the HM should have 2 mobs as well because blah blah blah guards blah blah blah". I get that they're guards, but maybe the guards in the HM shouldn't be equally as weak as the ones in NM.

I never said that BECAUSE they had two guards that this one should, I said it did have the same slow down, not once but twice... but you know reading comprehension on forums is an awesome feature that should come in button form. When people are posting the reader can press the button for a preschool level translation so people can interpret post correctly.