When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

[Gardes]

How can you tell me how i think? I have tried make a static actually and it failed because no one does it anymore so now your point is completely invalid so go away thank you I'm sure many have tried but had the same result as me. Don't speak as if you know what people are thinking because you don't. Your just saying what your thinking and thinking that i do that which i don't.

Funny you say that. I made a post about how I helped made my current scob static but I wasn't even the original member of that scob static. I was a backup for the original 'version' of that static that had no real time frame on when I can even go in as a temporary sub in. They didn't even tell me to be a backup member and deal with it or anything like that; I just knew I wanted to raid with them but still keep my options open. Some people in the fc at the time was in the same boat and was even ahead in the 'queue' by a couple weeks. But I bid my time and geared up secondary classes just in case. Then suddenly they needed a full time replacement and everybody else that can do it was gone except me. I had poured my soldiery into pld but they took me in as a dps anyway. About 2-3 weeks after I joined, the group finally saw the t9 boss.

So you basically tried 2 groups but isn't satisfied that you only get to be a backup member and you left immediately and then only tried at making a static only once (based on your 2 posts)? Other people may not have the patience for numerous attempts as a group in the fight but it seems the 'other' side does not have the patience for numerous attempts for a like minded group either.

[Kazumac]

Why would they go back and practice more T5 when they're up to Second Coil? They should be practicing Second Coil.

You are right they won't go back to that content as they are now beyond it but that's kind of the problem...

Most players working on SCOB expect players to have the awareness to dodge twisters, divebombs and even weights of the land at a minimum. By getting to T6 without those skills you are doing yourself a disservice.

I feel like every carry (I really hate calling it a carry...) I've done has been a disservice to that player despite their gratitude or my excitement to help them get to new things. Many of them have come back extra demoralized from their experiences in t6. Be it the difficulty of the content that they literally cannot contribute to or the rude awakening if how far behind they actually are from everyone else.

[Sadonix]

-snips-

You're exactly spot on about hate breeding more hates.(Hint : it's also the other way around too)

Although you can't be more wrong about me hating your ...um.. "lost people" ? Whatever that lost people of yours mean,all I currently feel is apathy towards endgame. This environment and attitude are welcome to continue and I might even roll with it for a while into t10. Don't think I would want to stick around much for long though. Coping and trying to mix in with the l33ts have never been my things.

Let's be honest,the elite people at the top of the mountain don't want too many people climbing up to stand at the same place as they are,since that would make them feel their achievement become somewhat less glorified. Meanwhile there are new people struggling to climb up the same mountain but started out too late and keep getting rejected by most of their forerunners for the aforementioned reason. See the problem ? You are in one camp,or the other. The difference in stance is pretty much clear for both.

Edit : Just saw some of your opinions on the other threads and I think I can gather up the idea about which camp you're in favor of,so let's drop the pretense about this "hate breeds hate",shall we ?

[Tiggy]

Although you can't be more wrong about me hating your ...um.. "lost people" ?

Phone typo. My b.

Let's be honest,the elite people at the top of the mountain don't want too many people climbing up to stand at the same place as they are,since that would make them feel their achievement become somewhat less glorified. Meanwhile there are new people struggling to climb up the same mountain but started out too late and keep getting rejected by most of their forerunners for the aforementioned reason. See the problem ? You are in one camp,or the other. The difference in stance is pretty much clear for both.

So I helped those 3 people get wins for no reason? I enjoy getting more people into the later turns. I like getting more people in our FC through the coils so we have more to do pick up groups with for secondary and tertiary jobs or to do what we call "alternate job coil day!". It's not so black and wait as elite non-elite, raider non-raider, casual hardcore. There are genuinely people who do believe that going through the turns helps you develop skills that you can use in later fights and that it's good for you. There are also people like that who genuinely like helping people. It's this ridiculous black and white attitude coming from some people that assumes all raiders or all people who think learning from these fights is good are just terrible awful bad people who are doing nothing more than propagating a conspiracy of suppression against the n00bs or something.

Believing the turns to be a good learning tool and right of passage into harder content is not mutually exclusive to being a helpful individual. You can be both.

Believing that meeting people and making friends helps you get content done easier than party finder doesn't make me a bad person either.

[CGMidlander]

Let's be honest,the elite people at the top of the mountain don't want too many people climbing up to stand at the same place as they are,since that would make them feel their achievement become somewhat less glorified. Meanwhile there are new people struggling to climb up the same mountain but started out too late and keep getting rejected by most of their forerunners for the aforementioned reason. See the problem ? You are in one camp,or the other. The difference in stance is pretty much clear for both.

That's a baseless assumption.

Where do you suppose a lot of raid guides come from?

[jars]

you can't learn a fight in the pf. I did one shiva ex group and figured that out quick enough. party starts, people are on different points in the fight, and people drop out after a couple wipes because people with little-no experience aren't getting the mechanics. then you get new people who need mechanics re-explained and more people drop out because now it's been over an hour and you have made 0 progress. repeat until party disbands.

[Sadonix]

-snips-

Sorry,but I've been backtracking your post in this thread and you seem to be using "those 3 people" as a prime example for making your point. Not saying it's an act that doesn't deserve commendation -if it's true- but for all we know it was just your words that you did good and you seem to be boasting about it a lot for such a helpful person. Assuming you actually were Mother Teresa and did help those people,it's still just a drop of water in the vast ocean. Doesn't make much difference,tbh. I passed t5 a long time ago and still dreaded whenever someone asked me to jump back into it,surely I just can't match your benevolence.

Btw since it seems this is starting to get dragged into more and more defensively individual debate and less about what the OP actually want I'm going to leave this thread out at that. Just want to be clear,I don't intend to antagonize anyone so you don't need to worry about being made a "bad person". As mentioned above,it's just nature of the game,and you roll with it until you become too tired to continue

you can't learn a fight in the pf. I did one shiva ex group and figured that out quick enough. party starts, people are on different points in the fight, and people drop out after a couple wipes because people with little-no experience aren't getting the mechanics. then you get new people who need mechanics re-explained and more people drop out because now it's been over an hour and you have made 0 progress. repeat until party disbands.

Actually most of my clears come from learning and experiencing it with PUGs. It's a very tedious and sanity testing process though,your own perseverance play the most important part in it. I might get even further with more raids but honestly, I question if it's even worth all the trouble and time repeating the same with t10-13 all over again for me.

That's a baseless assumption.

Where do you suppose a lot of raid guides come from?

Some people take pride in guiding others since it shows that they have really done the job and get past the ordeal,but it's one thing to give a lettered guide and another to jump down in trying to achieve a clear with other people. A lettered guide wouldn't even matter if no one want you to take part in actual run.

And it's not a baseless assumption at all. What with the amounts of "kick 100 sol","clear only","show me 1 loot as proof" and the amount of elitists coming in to tell how people suck and just quit on spot even in a learning party,it's only fair to come to that conclusion.

[Ghishlain]

For all those on the bandwagon that unless you're in a raid group day 1, or manage to join one day 1, you're gonna be left in the dust, I present the following:

2.2 Patch Notes - Dated March 26th, 2014
2.3 Patch Notes - Dated July 7th, 2014

My own personal achievement history - Specifically my mapping achievements for Black Shroud
Note the following:
Turn 6 Map achievement - August 6th, 2014
Turn 7 Map achievement - August 13th, 2014
Turn 8 Map achievement - August 15th, 2014
Turn 9 Clear achievement - October 25th, 2014

I started to build my static about a week or two after 2.3 launched and got my first T6 clear five and a half months after second coil was released. It's very much possible to build a group even after many people have gotten so far ahead from the start gate. It just needs an amount of patience and networking to get it done. The more exposure you have, the more likely you'll get into a static, or be able to network with enough people to begin a static. And in the end, my T9 clear not only got myself the clear, it got another 7 very capable raiders that very same clear as well.

Some advice
-DON'T. GIVE. UP. The hardest part about building a static is the beginning. Getting the members of the static is the hardest part of the ordeal. Keep an open communication and keep those you respect and trust close.
-Get exposure. Participate in PFs for EX Primals, chat with people, see whom may be needing a static and try to make in roads and connections with those individuals.
-Start PFs with a small group of connections - PFs will most likely fill up faster if you have half a party initially assembled (especially if you happen to have a heal + tank combo already available) - Use your connections and challenge together to build trust.
-Use your PFs (or others) to gauge even more people, and acquire more people for your static - keep building until you have that eight
-Don't kid yourself - there is unfortunately a group of players who will never progress far into end game raiding due to their ineptitude. Filter these people out, as much as that sounds harsh. You can do other content with them, but you need those who are raiding capable to be part of your group of 8.
-Communication is important. People have busy schedules and being able to determine good time frames for everyone allows for easy co-ordination for time frames. Use Skype, AIM, MSN, Mog Mail, /tell, cell phone numbers, etc, just stay in touch with your group so they are kept abreast of your scheduling and plants.

The first hurdle of building a static is the toughest. Alternatively, if you market yourself well, you may get an invited opportunity instead. Just know that the more marketable you are, the more likely you'll either be invited to a static or you'll have people stick with you through thick and thin of building one.

Good luck.

Assuming you actually were Mother Teresa and did help those people,it's still just a drop of water in the vast ocean.

I don't personally think it's as bad as people think it is. Every time someone clears T5 or T9, chances are there should be at least 2 other people clearing it as well, if not the entire group. I'd like to think the ratio is more like 40:60 clearing because, as I stated earlier, there will always (unfortunately) be a group of people that will only see a win when they are carried through it, and are willing to raid but unable to clear due to their skill level. I'm not being pessimistic, just realistic. The ultimate goal for any raider is to be able to get those who they feel can make the commitments and achievements needed to clear content and get enough of them together to reach that goalpost as a group.

[Wave]

Let's be honest,the elite people at the top of the mountain don't want too many people climbing up to stand at the same place as they are,since that would make them feel their achievement become somewhat less glorified. Meanwhile there are new people struggling to climb up the same mountain but started out too late and keep getting rejected by most of their forerunners for the aforementioned reason. See the problem ? You are in one camp,or the other. The difference in stance is pretty much clear for both.

I don't understand how you feel that endgame players are denying other people's progress. You're welcome to start your own static or try to join a recruiting static and progress along with everyone else. You're welcome to set up learning parties on party finder, or join an FC and get help / tips from more experienced players. Endgame players aren't lurking in the shadows sabotaging your turn 9 attempts so you can't progress. That's just ridiculous.

[CGMidlander]

Some people take pride in guiding others since it shows that they have really done the job and get past the ordeal,but it's one thing to give a lettered guide and another to jump down in trying to achieve a clear with other people. A lettered guide wouldn't even matter if no one want you to take part in actual run.

Time is a limited resource. There's no feasible way for anyone to personally help every person they come across that might need help.
Therefore, personal help is usually limited to only friends, FC members, and linkshells.

And it's not a baseless assumption at all. What with the amounts of "kick 100 sol","clear only","show me 1 loot as proof" and the amount of elitists coming in to tell how people suck and just quit on spot even in a learning party,it's only fair to come to that conclusion.

Just because a certain type of player screams the loudest and tends to leave a more lasting impression, doesn't necessarily mean they are the majority.