When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

[Tiggy]

Seems people are stuck in the "make it to the top" mindset. I get really tired when people tell me "oh find a raiding FC", "Make a Static", "Build your own party" and etc. Those are the worst reasons anyone can give.

While raiding or statics are one thing but if you think people telling you to build a party is the worst advice anyone can give then please, stop playing this game. Building a party to get something done is the de facto standard in MMOs. If this is so difficult for you then you are very clearly in the wrong genre.

The only people saying these reasons are people most likely already in a static when they were already in a formed FC so they were first pick.

Baseless assumptions. Many people who don't raid will say the same thing because the results are clear. You don't have to be a raider to understand what gets the job done. No need to be so negative.

Holding back other players just so you can keep your elitism is just stupid.
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I mean why do you care they nerf content you don't even do anymore? I mean really how self intitled do you need to be so defensive of nerfing content which you don't even touch anymore
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That was just my opinion and a strong one at that because im really tired of all these self intitled elitists in this forum that it hurts.

I'm going to post this from an earlier in this thread because it's relevant.

People who know that all the content that follows is harder and that removing those mechanics wouldn't really anyone in a meaningful way. You'd only be removing a learning tool to help people practice simple mechanics in preparation for the crazier ones to come. Just because it's old does not mean it has no purpose. If you can't do the simple mechanics in T5 you are in for a world of hurt in the second coil, and instead of T5 needs nerfed threads we'll instead be having the same conversation about the "old content" of T6 and T7. It doesn't really change anything but the context of the conversation. People who struggle with T5 will continue to struggle with T6 and beyond.

You're opinion that it's all for "elitist" reasons makes your attitude as bad as real elitist raiders. It's toxic. It assumes people are elitist solely because they raid. It's as bad as racism as far as I'm concerned and you need to keep a more open mind about people instead of categorizing them all in this nasty bucket you seem to be giving them. As I pointed out above T5 still serves as a viable learning tool. It teaches you basic mechanics that are only elaborated on in further fights. FOR EXAMPLE the divebombs. You wait for a signal, move 4 feet and move 4 back. It is identical to the mechanic in T6 where you get a signal, run 4 feet through the boss, run 4 feet back. If you can't do it in T5 what makes you think T6 would be any different? T5 still serves a viable purpose for teaching mechanics.

You really need to get over this "everyone who disagrees with making coil is an elitist" attitude. It makes you worse than the elitists you clearly hate.

When it comes down to it you are the leader of your own destiny in an MMO. You are the only one that can make sure things get done. No one else. Make better friends that can come help you. Network. Join a LS that likes doing this stuff. Coming here and complaining about it will never get you any closer to getting it done but jumping in game and meeting people and trying to form a party will.

[Lemuria]

While raiding or statics are one thing but if you think people telling you to build a party is the worst advice anyone can give then please, stop playing this game. Building a party to get something done is the de facto standard in MMOs. If this is so difficult for you then you are very clearly in the wrong genre.

I think you intentionally missed most of the point here just to make your argument stick. The point is that the few people still interested in running this content as a static are the same people generally ALREADY in static parties.

New parties are slow to get off the ground because, to be frank, failure is frustrating and repeated failure is just maddening. It's easy to be on the inside looking out and telling people what they should be doing, but not so easy to be on the outside looking in and trying to do it. That's easily my biggest gripe with some of the attitudes displayed in this thread. Instead of looking at things objectively people are making grand assumptions that everyone who can't do this hasn't even made an effort to try.

There's also this huge stigma that if a player hasn't cleared a certain coil, regardless of their reasons, they're somehow a "worse" player than those who have. It makes getting into those groups far more difficult because they'll often refuse to take anyone on-board who doesn't have multiple clears under their belt. Heck, several groups ALREADY ask players to 'post their drops' before getting even a second-glance. So, even if you DID beat it but your gear didn't drop, oops.. too bad.

To be honest, if the 'endgame' crowd are the kind who look down their noses to everyone else then it's not the sort of clique I'd like to be associated with. I know there's some genuinely good groups out there which are far more tolerant, but the cacophony of trouble makers drowns them out, sadly.

[Tiggy]

I think you intentionally missed most of the point here just to make your argument stick. The point is that the few people still interested in running this content as a static are the same people generally ALREADY in static parties.

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To be honest, if the 'endgame' crowd are the kind who look down their noses to everyone else then it's not the sort of clique I'd like to be associated with. I know there's some genuinely good groups out there which are far more tolerant, but the cacophony of trouble makers drowns them out, sadly.

In the last 2 weeks I've helped 3 people get there first wins, and some of them I didn't even know but where instead friends of friends so I know you're talking in generalizations. This is an MMO. I've said before that you need to make friends, be a part of a community, and they can help you out. MMOs are not solo adventures. That's how those 3 players in these last two weeks got wins. They made themselves a part of a community that was then willing to help them out. If you expect magic out of the party finder then you're going to have a bad time. Each one of those parties I was in was filled with people from linkshells, FC, or friend lists. Not one went to party finder. This bit of advice has been repeated in nearly every thread like this and yet time and time again people are unwilling to put in the effort to get to know people.

Less progress for others mean more ego for some. Wouldn't want too many people clearing scob now,would you ? Too many people might make it to t13 before your little group and it wouldn't make you feel special anymore.

This kind of attitude is really uncalled for and just as bad as the people you're hating on. Hate only breeds more hate.

*edit for phone typo. Damn swype*

[Sadonix]

-snips-

You're exactly spot on about hate breeding more hates.(Hint : it's also the other way around too)

Although you can't be more wrong about me hating your ...um.. "lost people" ? Whatever that lost people of yours mean,all I currently feel is apathy towards endgame. This environment and attitude are welcome to continue and I might even roll with it for a while into t10. Don't think I would want to stick around much for long though. Coping and trying to mix in with the l33ts have never been my things.

Let's be honest,the elite people at the top of the mountain don't want too many people climbing up to stand at the same place as they are,since that would make them feel their achievement become somewhat less glorified. Meanwhile there are new people struggling to climb up the same mountain but started out too late and keep getting rejected by most of their forerunners for the aforementioned reason. See the problem ? You are in one camp,or the other. The difference in stance is pretty much clear for both.

Edit : Just saw some of your opinions on the other threads and I think I can gather up the idea about which camp you're in favor of,so let's drop the pretense about this "hate breeds hate",shall we ?

[Tiggy]

Although you can't be more wrong about me hating your ...um.. "lost people" ?

Phone typo. My b.

Let's be honest,the elite people at the top of the mountain don't want too many people climbing up to stand at the same place as they are,since that would make them feel their achievement become somewhat less glorified. Meanwhile there are new people struggling to climb up the same mountain but started out too late and keep getting rejected by most of their forerunners for the aforementioned reason. See the problem ? You are in one camp,or the other. The difference in stance is pretty much clear for both.

So I helped those 3 people get wins for no reason? I enjoy getting more people into the later turns. I like getting more people in our FC through the coils so we have more to do pick up groups with for secondary and tertiary jobs or to do what we call "alternate job coil day!". It's not so black and wait as elite non-elite, raider non-raider, casual hardcore. There are genuinely people who do believe that going through the turns helps you develop skills that you can use in later fights and that it's good for you. There are also people like that who genuinely like helping people. It's this ridiculous black and white attitude coming from some people that assumes all raiders or all people who think learning from these fights is good are just terrible awful bad people who are doing nothing more than propagating a conspiracy of suppression against the n00bs or something.

Believing the turns to be a good learning tool and right of passage into harder content is not mutually exclusive to being a helpful individual. You can be both.

Believing that meeting people and making friends helps you get content done easier than party finder doesn't make me a bad person either.

[Sadonix]

-snips-

Sorry,but I've been backtracking your post in this thread and you seem to be using "those 3 people" as a prime example for making your point. Not saying it's an act that doesn't deserve commendation -if it's true- but for all we know it was just your words that you did good and you seem to be boasting about it a lot for such a helpful person. Assuming you actually were Mother Teresa and did help those people,it's still just a drop of water in the vast ocean. Doesn't make much difference,tbh. I passed t5 a long time ago and still dreaded whenever someone asked me to jump back into it,surely I just can't match your benevolence.

Btw since it seems this is starting to get dragged into more and more defensively individual debate and less about what the OP actually want I'm going to leave this thread out at that. Just want to be clear,I don't intend to antagonize anyone so you don't need to worry about being made a "bad person". As mentioned above,it's just nature of the game,and you roll with it until you become too tired to continue

you can't learn a fight in the pf. I did one shiva ex group and figured that out quick enough. party starts, people are on different points in the fight, and people drop out after a couple wipes because people with little-no experience aren't getting the mechanics. then you get new people who need mechanics re-explained and more people drop out because now it's been over an hour and you have made 0 progress. repeat until party disbands.

Actually most of my clears come from learning and experiencing it with PUGs. It's a very tedious and sanity testing process though,your own perseverance play the most important part in it. I might get even further with more raids but honestly, I question if it's even worth all the trouble and time repeating the same with t10-13 all over again for me.

That's a baseless assumption.

Where do you suppose a lot of raid guides come from?

Some people take pride in guiding others since it shows that they have really done the job and get past the ordeal,but it's one thing to give a lettered guide and another to jump down in trying to achieve a clear with other people. A lettered guide wouldn't even matter if no one want you to take part in actual run.

And it's not a baseless assumption at all. What with the amounts of "kick 100 sol","clear only","show me 1 loot as proof" and the amount of elitists coming in to tell how people suck and just quit on spot even in a learning party,it's only fair to come to that conclusion.

[CGMidlander]

Some people take pride in guiding others since it shows that they have really done the job and get past the ordeal,but it's one thing to give a lettered guide and another to jump down in trying to achieve a clear with other people. A lettered guide wouldn't even matter if no one want you to take part in actual run.

Time is a limited resource. There's no feasible way for anyone to personally help every person they come across that might need help.
Therefore, personal help is usually limited to only friends, FC members, and linkshells.

And it's not a baseless assumption at all. What with the amounts of "kick 100 sol","clear only","show me 1 loot as proof" and the amount of elitists coming in to tell how people suck and just quit on spot even in a learning party,it's only fair to come to that conclusion.

Just because a certain type of player screams the loudest and tends to leave a more lasting impression, doesn't necessarily mean they are the majority.

[Tiggy]

Sorry,but I've been backtracking your post in this thread and you seem to be using "those 3 people" as a prime example for making your point. Not saying it's an act that doesn't deserve commendation -if it's true- but for all we know it was just your words that you did good and you seem to be boasting about it a lot for such a helpful person.

The point is every person who raids out there isn't a terrible horrible person who doesn't want to help, but let's focus on that part and not the overall message.

[CGMidlander]

Let's be honest,the elite people at the top of the mountain don't want too many people climbing up to stand at the same place as they are,since that would make them feel their achievement become somewhat less glorified. Meanwhile there are new people struggling to climb up the same mountain but started out too late and keep getting rejected by most of their forerunners for the aforementioned reason. See the problem ? You are in one camp,or the other. The difference in stance is pretty much clear for both.

That's a baseless assumption.

Where do you suppose a lot of raid guides come from?

[Wave]

Let's be honest,the elite people at the top of the mountain don't want too many people climbing up to stand at the same place as they are,since that would make them feel their achievement become somewhat less glorified. Meanwhile there are new people struggling to climb up the same mountain but started out too late and keep getting rejected by most of their forerunners for the aforementioned reason. See the problem ? You are in one camp,or the other. The difference in stance is pretty much clear for both.

I don't understand how you feel that endgame players are denying other people's progress. You're welcome to start your own static or try to join a recruiting static and progress along with everyone else. You're welcome to set up learning parties on party finder, or join an FC and get help / tips from more experienced players. Endgame players aren't lurking in the shadows sabotaging your turn 9 attempts so you can't progress. That's just ridiculous.