Titan Extreme is NOT Fun

[Billie21]

All games are 'artificially' difficult. Dodging is a skill in and of itself. If you can't dodge, you don't have the skill for this particular encounter. Sure, memorising the pattern rotation will help, but it isn't necessary. I still don't remember the rotations, even from HM, because it's not something I need to do. You just need to know how to deal with each of those patterns or events.

If you are expecting a stellar turn out in a Duty Finder with no implicit demands on previous experience or performance, then you'll likely be disappointed. You have three choices to succeed:

1) Take a group who you know can all do the fight
2) Take a group with players who can carry those that aren't great at the fight
3) Take a group with players prepared to put the time in together to learn

It sounds as if your base reference is number 3 and this is always going to be the most difficult option. But it's ultimately the player's choice. Although it's good the option is available, I don't think the DF is how Titan Ex (or even HM) is primarily intended to be completed.

Groups in i80/i90 are not struggling to complete this fight. Groups with multiple players still unable to dodge the abilities and deal with adds and tank switches are struggling to complete this fight. There's a difference. Yes, running Titan Ex in shitty gear is probably a bad idea. Whoop dee doo. But I promise you that the reason you are failing is not because of gear.

You keep insisting the only way to have valid difficult content is by making it based on decision making. You like one type of content, we get that. But not everyone consistently likes the same thing. I personally like variation and that my skills are tested in different ways. Decision making is certainly one of those, but being able to perform a dexterous role while under intense pressure is another.

This is interesting. I'd like to clear a few things to make sure I understand what you mean, if you don't mind.

What you call "dexterous role" and aparently oppose to "decision making", I understand it as basically "reflex action" (where the rapidity of your reflex is tested rather than what you are doing. Please do correct me if I misunderstood.

I would also like to know what you mean when you say "dodging is a skill in and of itself". What "skill" exactly? Because as I understand it, dodging means: 1) percieve the threat 2) moving to avoid it. Aside from reaction time, what "skill" does it require?

I do agree with you about the DF part: it would seem logical that the most difficult battles in the game were made for team effort and therefore be hard to PUG.

[Hitome]

You make valid points, to be sure. But Yes, if a dps dies and party is close or around bare minimum, its a wipe. Plain and simple. If your busting gear i90 and rocking 7k pally and 5k dps that parse 400+, you bet the fight isn't over. A good fight doesn't mean being 23 item levels higher than content to clear it makes it fun. Yes, the fight requires very minimal mechanics to succeed, but still doesn't qualify it as content deemed hard and rewarding. More of Oh finally cleared it, never looking at it again.

Then talk about ilevel requirements in general and not just for this specific fight. Notice in the thread I posted in? Several of the fights could use huge adjustments to be playable in DF. I'm well aware of this.

The game has been out for a while now. Many people are approaching i90 with mythology alone. If you acknowledge that SE made a blunder in setting the ilevel too low for most of the new (and old) DF content, then you obviously have a notion about where the ilevel should be set at to do the fight smoothly. To me, the extremes are probably up there at i78-i85. Can be done with less? Sure. Do I believe the development team equipped iwhatever gear and did these fights with the bare minimum? Yes. Are they also the people who developed the fight? Yes so they probably should have bumped up the ilevel by 10 levels or so after determining their own bare minimum.

What I'm saying is that many of the primal fights have never been DF friendly (pre 2.1/post 2.1) and continue to still not be. Instead of saying the fight is BS, focus more on the ilevel requirement for the normal DF player.

However, your first post in this thread as the OP was about instant kill mechanics. This simply isn't true. Ever been stun locked by a dreadknight who dies as he goes to stun another player? It disabled you for the rest of the Twintania encounter unless you are lucky enough to die. It removes you from the battlefield for all intents and purposes. In some cases, casting a raise during Twin can't be done due to positioning and mana constraints. If a DPS dies during twister phase, you have a very high probability of wiping due to dreadknights which are instant kill themselves. Do you find Twin fun, though? I personally do.

Now, how about the other extremes? I don't find Garuda fun at all due to aggro mechanics of the spiny plume. It causes more wipes than it should. I also do not like the nature of double whicked. Chances of a DF group understanding this fight in 60 minutes are very low. Most people will tell you, though, that Garuda is an easy fight and even 'fun'. Same with Ifrit. But both of them also use a set rotation that requires precise execution or you will wipe. I feel like Titan is getting the brunt of your attacks because his rotation appears faster than the other two. Why can't you view them as fights that stress different things? Garuda stresses tank communication the most. Titan stresses raid awareness the most. Ifrit stresses healer communication the most.

You find raid awareness difficult because it requires reliance on other members. Isn't this the problem with any DF fight, though? You're all strangers. No one knows each other. You need to all be aware and on the same page or it won't work: not exclusive to Titan Ex at all.

You are looking for a solution to a specific problem when there is a much larger one presented that is not being addressed.

Find me the options in titan, plzthx.

Oh, another edit: I said % cuz I don't have actual numbers, but it's at least two people, which makes it a percentage. I was not even misleading about anything, nor did I use any actual (inherently woulda been wrong) numbers. Don't be a D-bag; try to make valid points instead of trying to use non-logical arguments.

1) Read posts thoroughly when the information is readily available to you.

Anyone who has done this fight knows there is strategy. Do you let the healer or DPS go in or out for double gaols? Do you break the healer or DPS out first? Which method do you use to dodge the cross bombs? How do you utilize LB? How do you utilize tank CDs like hallowed and holmgang? How do you decide which bomb to kill on the gigantic bomb + plume + geocrush? How many people can die before you call it a wipe? Do you take 2 healers or 1 healer and 5 DPS? What method do you use to avoid weights? How do you optimize your strategy to help people with specific job requirements succeed (casters, melee DPS)? How many stacks do you let the tank take until you swap? Can your DPS communicate so that you do not push Titan into another phase during an inopportune time like after a stomp or upheaval?

It's like I'm talking to people who have no idea what they're talking about due to lack of experience. If a DPS dies before the heart, you raise them. 2 of our Titan kills have been with a DPS who was dead all throughout the heart/post heart phase due to a landslide. One of our kills was done with FIVE people dying and being brought back with raise. It's almost like the people in this thread should read the WHM swiftcast thread.

2) I'll try to refrain from using 'non-logical' arguments if you will refrain from using illogical arguments.

[Peptaru]

More blablah

Your non-logical argument was when you attacked my numbers, unsuccessfully. I'll give you credit for "where does the healer go" and other than that everything you listed is stack > move > stack > move.

[Raikki]

Find me the options in titan, plzthx.

Where should we put the gaols? How do we want to bait landslides for a given bomb pattern? When should we do tank swaps to make it the smoothest? How should we split DPS on jailers? Which bomb should we remove? When should PLDs use Tempered Will to prevent knockbacks?

[Hitome]

Non-logical

You provided numbers? When was this?

So LB is stack > move > stack > move. Stacking is a strategy, you know? Moving to specific locations is also one. Choosing party composition alters your strategy as well.

I see you're busy grasping at straws, though. I'll leave you and your 'non-logical' arguments to others who are more bored than I am at the moment.

I would also like to know what you mean when you say "dodging is a skill in and of itself". What "skill" exactly? Because as I understand it, dodging means: 1) percieve the threat 2) moving to avoid it. Aside from reaction time, what "skill" does it require?

What is 'skill'?

skill [skil]
noun
1. the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
2. competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.
3. a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.
4. Obsolete . understanding; discernment.

Seems to be linked to decision making. Do you continue to cast a spell knowing something is coming up that you need to dodge or do you cancel the cast and prepare to dodge? Decision made, skill associated with dodging. Ever notice that certain members in your group die more often than others? If dodging were not a skill, they would either all die or all live. People seem to think dodging is not a skill because it is more heavily influenced by other factors. Does that suddenly make it not a skill, though? No.

Decision making is a huge part of many classes/jobs in this game. Your ability to make informed decisions is what I would consider skill. Your ability to move out of something you know is coming is, therefore, a skill.

[Peptaru]

You're desperately seeking decisions that are not there.

Gaols, apart, and i credited the "where does the healer go" already.

You bait landslides by.... wait for it... stack > move > stack.

You don't have a bunch of freedom to decide tank swaps. Magic number > swap.

Split DPS on gaolers... wait what? I suppose you might end up with all melee, somehow, especially in PUG, but have you seen how fast they die to even one DPS?

Which bomb... > move > stack. . . the one you stack on.

Use tempered will if someone screws up and gets you targeted with an unavoidable landslide.

[Peptaru]

You provided numbers? When was this?

I said % and said I did NOT USE NUMBERS. And you talk about my made up statistics.... I didn't use any; FFS. Please tell me you're trollin with that cuz if so... 7/10.

[ZeroRains]

lol gotta admit the back and forth in this thread is pretty fun to read

[KHShadowrunner]

Titan fights, NM/HM/EM are fun. not sure what the fuss is about. Pretty sure Demon Wall also has this mechanic. So it's not like it's a lone task.

[Hitome]

Your non-logical argument was when you attacked my numbers

I believe this implies you have numbers. I attacked them, so you say.

Answer: Twintania has things that have been discussed by others.... >>>>Options<<<<

How many do we want to stack for fireball, do we want to feed a fireball and DS (edited, wrote divebomb cuz i was ranting.) to every other conflag? Are we gonna run around individually to neurolinks when we get the orb, or gonna tank her on top of one and have the OT eat them? If he gets liquid hell, do we move Twin or just have people run to the links til the ground under her is clear again? Melee DPS on the main snake or help with the first two babies? On the hill or center-to-side to dodge divebomb? And there are more... but that should be sufficient.

Stack > move > re-stack > re-move > re-stack > re-move.

So basically Twintania is stack > move > stack > move > stack > move. Gotcha.

Anyone who has done this fight knows there is strategy. Do you let the healer or DPS go in or out for double gaols? Do you break the healer or DPS out first? Which method do you use to dodge the cross bombs? How do you utilize LB? How do you utilize tank CDs like hallowed and holmgang? How do you decide which bomb to kill on the gigantic bomb + plume + geocrush? How many people can die before you call it a wipe? Do you take 2 healers or 1 healer and 5 DPS? What method do you use to avoid weights? How do you optimize your strategy to help people with specific job requirements succeed (casters, melee DPS)? How many stacks do you let the tank take until you swap? Can your DPS communicate so that you do not push Titan into another phase during an inopportune time like after a stomp or upheaval?

So let's go over which are not actual stack > move mechanics:

1) Deciding where gaols are placed
2) Which gaol is broken first and if you split DPS on gaols (ranged on far one, melee on close one) or not
3) Methods for dodging cross bombs vary. There are several different 'safe' bombs so stacking isn't necessary and is actually beneficial not to place everyone on the same bomb in some strategies
4) When your tank uses hallowed/holm is independent of stacking or moving. For instance, our tanks generally save it for the add phase when healers are hard-pressed.
5) Do you melee LB a bomb or Titan? Do you AoE LB? Do you even have an AoE LB? Do you use tank LB to mitigate bomb damage instead. Where is LB dependent on stacking or moving?
6) # of people who die before you call a wipe is independent of stacking or moving
7) Party composition is independent of stacking or moving: it changes your strategy entirely (in other words, kill Titan before the big set of bombs goes off/as they go off)
8) Do you have everyone stack for weights or spread out along the arena and move inwards? Oh look! A strategy regarding stacking tactics
9) Do your DPS know when to stop so that Titan isn't pushed prematurely into another phase when the healers aren't ready/people aren't topped off?

Many of these are independent of movement or stacking. Anything else you'd like to add or is it just un-logic/non-logic from here on out?