Re-rolling from Warrior, thoughts?

[RyuujinZERO]

The Tank has to do everything, All the time, Because not a single other class in the game has the capability to Stun or Silence.

This. As team co-ordination goes it often feels like the tanks and healers are handling all of it and us DPS are left sitting outside the war room while the generals draw up the plans and get treated as if we're incapable of doing more than merely rotating the same few skills over and over; not all of us DPS are playing DPS because we're incapable of higher strategy (In other MMO's I favour controller classes but FF14 has no dedicated controller, and support was boring), ironiclly the very thing we're discussing here is the delegation of the controller role to other classes.

Lancers have a great stun (Leg sweep) on very short CD (~20 seconds as memory serves), archer's have a silence (Blunt arrow) on a reasonable cooldown (~30 seconds), us monks have both a stun AND silence, but have a longer CD (40 sec) or finicky usage condition (Must be in opo-opo form) respectively.

[Aicasia]

The Tank has to do everything, All the time, Because not a single other class in the game has the capability to Stun or Silence.

Oh Wait.
Monks have an AoE Silence, Warriors have a Stun, Lancers have a Stun and Bards (i believe) have a shot that silences.
Just off the top of my head.

Have you ever considered having your DPS pay attention?

Stuns don't work on ADS. If you're asking a monk to use Arm of the Destroyer instead of Bootshine or Dragon Kick on a single target then your group composition is wrong, because 130 TP for a 1s silence is the least possible efficient way to deal with that situation. Doable, but should really never be necessary. That leaves Bards and Paladins, so you better have two bards for ADS if you don't think the PLD should be silencing.

[Ruminate]

Looks like its time for math.
Assuming identical gear, and the 25% hp increase for Warriors.
Paladin has 4500 HP. Takes 20% less damage.
Warrior has 5625 HP. Takes 15% more healing.

Boss lands a blow for 3k damage.
Paladin reduces this to 2400, leaving him with 2100 HP.
Warrior takes the full 3k, reducing him to 2625.

White Mage casts Cure II for 1200, for this we will assume two White Mages each equally geared casting at one Tank each.
Paladin has 2100 HP, receives 1200 HP, now has 3300 HP.
Warrior has 2625 HP, receives 1380 HP, how has 4005 HP.

Huh. Well look at that, both tanks took the same hit, survived it in their own way.

Now if those Healers were Scholars, using Adloquium on their Tanks for around 500 we get:
Paladin has 2100 HP, receives 500, bringing him to 2600 with a 500 damage buffer shield.
Warrior has 2625 HP, receives 575, bringing him to 3200, with a 575 damage buffer shield.

In both cases the Warrior survives with far more HP than the paladin after a single heal, But with the Scholars, not only is the Heal bigger, the Shield is ALSO bigger as a result of the larger Heal.
I cannot see how Warriors could be inferior or harder to heal than Paladins.

Lets ignore your conclusion and extend this example further:

Paladin has 2600 HP with a 500 damage buffer shield.
Warrior has 3200 HP with a 575 damage buffer shield.

Boss lands a blow for 3k damage.
Paladin reduces this to 2400, leaving them with 700 HP, 15.5% of their health remaining(out of a max of 4500 per your example).
Warrior takes the full 3k, leaving them with 775 HP, 13.7% of their health remaining(out of a max of 5625 per your example).

The thinking that Scholar heals are better on the WAR ignores how PLD damage reduction actually works.

[RyuujinZERO]

Stuns don't work on ADS. If you're asking a monk to use Arm of the Destroyer instead of Bootshine or Dragon Kick on a single target then your group composition is wrong, because 130 TP for a 1s silence is the least possible efficient way to deal with that situation. That leaves Bards and Paladins, so you better have two bards for ADS if you don't think the PLD should be silencing.

A 1 second silence is essentially an interuppt. It's not intended to blanket shutdown the enemies, you're timing it to coincide with skill activation so their spell breaks. Between invigorate and bard song a pair of monks timing their rotations to be half a cycle out from each other and replacing bootshine with arm of the destroyer in their rotation could effectively shut down an entire group's spellcasting for a very significant duration (~a minute or more). It's arguable if their DPS would even take a hit if they're hitting multiple opponents the net HP lost from the enemy force is comparable to the focused DPS of bootshine (Threat may become an issue however)

[Aicasia]

A 1 second silence is essentially an interuppt. It's not intended to blanket shutdown the enemies, you're timing it to coincide with skill activation so their spell breaks. Between invigorate and bard song a pair of monks timing their rotations to be half a cycle out from each other and replacing bootshine with arm of the destroyer in their rotation could effectively shut down an entire group's spellcasting for a very significant duration (~a minute or more)

A 1s, 130 TP, stance dependent silence that is never worth using on one target unless you're soloing and can't use Steel Peakt. If you HAVE to use a Monk for silencing it's a good move, but if you have a Paladin and a Bard you should never ask your Monk to silence anything, especially not ADS.

And "an entire group of casters" is not a single target. ADS is a single target. If you have three or more targets you should be hitting, then you should be using Arm regardless of the Silence. Like I said, if you HAVE to use the Monk for silencing its good, but if you don't have to you shouldn't, because it is not as on-demand as the PLD and Bard silences. They have to sit in a single stance to get the silence if they're not perfectly synced with High Voltage. I mean, Arm definitely has its uses, but I guarantee that if you are making ADS one of those you're doing it wrong. They can be a backup, but by the time you realize someone missed their silence it's generally too late to use Arm unless you were sitting in stance waiting. High Voltage isn't really a long cast.

[Sylve]

I don't mean that passive buff, I mean their skill buff Rampart, Sentinel, Awareness, Bulwark ( 60% block rate on shield.)

Always judge a tanks ability to survive *without* cooldowns, or random chance. Both of which you claimed should be added. You will not always block. You will not always have Rampart or any other damage reduction buff. There are times when none of that is available and THOSE are the moments we math for. Any undergeared scrub tank can survive what would otherwise kill him if he blows all his cooldowns to do so.

[Sylve]

Lets ignore your conclusion and extend this example further:

Paladin has 2600 HP with a 500 damage buffer shield.
Warrior has 3200 HP with a 575 damage buffer shield.

Boss lands a blow for 3k damage.
Paladin reduces this to 2400, leaving them with 700 HP, 15.5% of their health remaining(out of a max of 4500 per your example).
Warrior takes the full 3k, leaving them with 775 HP, 13.7% of their health remaining(out of a max of 5625 per your example).

The thinking that Scholar heals are better on the WAR ignores how PLD damage reduction actually works.

Unless bosses all suddenly switched their abilities to hit for percentages of max HP, the lesser percentage of the whole has no bearing, the fact remains that the Warrior has more HP remaining than the Paladin. Oh and lets not forget that the Warrior then hits Inner Beast, which has no Cooldown and is freely available during your combos, which will heal him well and truly above 1k. So you're not proving anything here, except that the two tanks can survive the same number of blows.

In fact, should the second 3k(2400) blow land on both tanks before a Heal of ANY kind completes, the Warrior is the one still standing.

[Ruminate]

Unless bosses all suddenly switched their abilities to hit for percentages of max HP, the lesser percentage of the whole has no bearing, the fact remains that the Warrior has more HP remaining than the Paladin. Oh and lets not forget that the Warrior then hits Inner Beast, which has no Cooldown and is freely available during your combos, which will heal him well and truly above 1k. So you're not proving anything here, except that the two tanks can survive the same number of blows.

In fact, should the second 3k(2400) blow land on both tanks before a Heal of ANY kind completes, the Warrior is the one still standing.

Again, you are completely ignoring the PLD's damage reduction when convenient.

If the second 3k/2400 blow lands on both tanks before a heal of any kind completes, both are still standing.

Edit: Wait. No thats wrong. Neither of them are standing. As per your example, the WAR has 2625 HP. It takes a 3k hit and dies. The PLD has 2100 HP, takes a 2400 hit and dies.

[Zaiken]

Always judge a tanks ability to survive *without* cooldowns, or random chance. Both of which you claimed should be added. You will not always block. You will not always have Rampart or any other damage reduction buff. There are times when none of that is available and THOSE are the moments we math for. Any undergeared scrub tank can survive what would otherwise kill him if he blows all his cooldowns to do so.

But you can't just dismissed that a Paladin have all this ability to his access. A good Tank know when to use his ability and when not to burn all of it in one shot. You can't just take 2 class to compare them without any of their ability to migrate damage as a Tank. The ability are there for a Paladin and not on a Warrior for a reason. It's not like once the Paladin use those ability it will be gone forever, it will just be on a cool down. The Paladin will always have access to it when the Warrior does not making the Paladin overall easier to heal and taking less damage overall. This is especially true with long Boss fight. For long Boss fight, Paladin will shine over a Warrior.

I have play 2 class Paladin and Warrior to 50, and I find Paladin Tank better for single boss fight and for long Boss battle then a Warrior.

[Sylve]

Again, you are completely ignoring the PLD's damage reduction when convenient.

If the second 3k/2400 blow lands on both tanks before a heal of any kind completes, both are still standing.

Edit: Wait. No thats wrong. Neither of them are standing. As per your example, the WAR has 2625 HP. It takes a 3k hit and dies. The PLD has 2100 HP, takes a 2400 hit and dies.

You are correct. My mistake.
However, the Warrior in this situation of no external healing has Inner Beast, the Paladin has no such skill. There is also Storms Path. Again, the Paladin has no skill to get him into a safe zone that doesn't come with a long cool-down.
If you bring then, the cool-downs into play, both tanks are still standing.
Which just proves what I've been saying the whole time, the Warrior is not inferior, it is different. Both tanks are capable using their personal skill sets, survive the same damage.

To break it down further,
A Paladin will take less damage in spikes, There will be periods where he will get hit hard, and periods during Cool-downs that he will take minimal damage.
A Warrior takes fairly consistent damage, but recovers HP faster than the Paladin does.