Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Mychael]

So I actually did my research once again. Listing games with defined job system.

Final Fantasy I Black Magic: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/M...29#Black_Magic (Quake is here, but it's techinically an instant kill move, non-elemental)

Final Fantasy III Black Magic: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C...II_Black_Magic (FTI + Quake now a proper earth elemental spells)

Final Fantasy V Black Magic

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C..._V_Black_Magic (Fire, Thunder, Ice onry)

Final Fantasy Tactics Black Mage , Final Fantasy Tactics Advance Black Mage, Final Fantasy Tactics A2 Black Mage

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/B..._%28Tactics%29

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/B...ics_Advance%29

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/B...8Tactics_A2%29

(Fire, Thunder, Ice onry)

And now games without a defined job system

Final Fantasy II Black Magic: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/C...II_Black_Magic (Fire, Thunder, Ice onry)

FFIV: Palom and Porom do learn Quake as black magic.

FFVII. FFVIII: Has no "black magic" definition

FFIX: Party black mage learns Fire, thunder, ice and one water spell

FFX: Fire, Ice, Water and Thunder are Black magic

FFXI+: Entire elemental wheel is considered black magic

You miiight have a bit of a point with quake since it was on I and III, but not the full elemental wheel. FFXI is the only job system FF game in which black mage has access to all elements. Only after XI that games really started considering all elemental magic as black magic

I gotta leave work, else I'd actually check black mage movesets in the chocobo spin off games.

That looks oddly familiar...

FF1: Quake attempts to instantly kill an enemy by swallowing them into the ground.
It is not an earth elemental spell.

FF3: Quake is a Level 7 Black Magic spell that causes major Earth-elemental damage. Only the Jobs Black Mage, Magus, Sage, and Onion Knight can use this spell. It can be bought in Doga's Village and in the Invincible.
It is not exclusive to BLM, though it is black magic in FF3.

FF4: In this version it is a non-elemental spell that damages all non-flying enemies and ignores Reflect.
Non-elemental

FF6,FF7, FF8--Quake is an earth elemental spell, but is not really attributed to a "class."

FF11: The only game where Black Mage exclusively receives Quake as an earth elemental spell.

FF13: Is not a spell, but a technique (that does deal earth elemental damage) learned by pretty much every character, in different roles of the crystarium.

FF Tactics: Quake is Planar Magic.

Crystal Chronicles RoF: Quake = piling Fire, Thunder, Cure, and Clear. It inflicts stun on the enemy

Crystal Chronicles EoT: A pillar of rock erupts from beneath the enemy, sending it flying into the air and inflicting a stun effect after landing.

See the trend?

Googling and reading FF wiki might not be the best way to argue.

This thread is back in the same place it was 150 posts ago. -_- Can we kill it already?

[Jinrya-Geki]

Balancing the spells doesn't matter at all.

It's either give black mage all spells and give white mage only holy-type spells, or enemies must lose all resistance to elemental damage. Because there will never be a happy medium with the spells split up like this.

If the split continues and the spells stay exactly the same, Black mage will hit a wall against any mobs resistant to lightning. And when white mage sees the wall coming it can laugh and walk around it for the simple fact that "Ok if I can't hurt it, then I'll just heal".

All the while the black mage will have to slam it's face into the wall of resistance.

[Kallera]

Balancing the spells doesn't matter at all.

It's either give black mage all spells and give white mage only holy-type spells, or enemies must lose all resistance to elemental damage. Because there will never be a happy medium with the spells split up like this.

If the split continues and the spells stay exactly the same, Black mage will hit a wall against any mobs resistant to lightning. And when white mage sees the wall coming it can laugh and walk around it for the simple fact that "Ok if I can't hurt it, then I'll just heal".

All the while the black mage will have to slam it's face into the wall of resistance.

Or the black mage can, you know, not use his thunder spells or he can use chains that don't end with thunder. He's still going to have an advantage in magical attack with his gear and traits.

[Jinrya-Geki]

I wonder if you played Black Mage enough to know Fire and Ice spells really suck.

[Alhanelem]

really... the class/job designs for cnj/whm and thm/blm are fine...... The only thing the ideas of this thread can achieve is an attempt to make WHM more like WHM from some other game.

It's fine that it's not the same. Some jobs change a lot from one game to the next.

I wonder if you played Black Mage enough to know Fire and Ice spells really suck.

Actually, they don't. Freeze is good, flare is good if you have the balls to get close enough, and the other fire spells are fine if you need AoE. Blizzara isnt super powerful but is very useful when you need instant damage.

[Alaltus]

I wonder if you played Black Mage enough to know Fire and Ice spells really suck.

We all know they suck its been said about a zillion times but the issue is how those spells were designed not the elements themselves. Fix them and then what exactly is the issue?

[Shougun]

Or the black mage can, you know, not use his thunder spells or he can use chains that don't end with thunder. He's still going to have an advantage in magical attack with his gear and traits.

Besides blizzard and freeze the other elements are aoe, that and their damage isn't to match the thunder combo (flare DoT is nice though).

Or further that if WHM is fighting stone weak monsters it probably means its resistant to lightning (if irc Earth strong aganist -> Lightning which means stone weak monster would be a lightning element being strong aganist lightning elements).

So advantage.. no - BLM will be inferior in those situations. Like gnats which are lightning element.

[Kallera]

Besides blizzard and freeze the other elements are aoe, that and their damage isn't to match the thunder combo (flare DoT is nice though).

Or further that if WHM is fighting stone weak monsters it probably means its resistant to lightning (if irc Earth strong aganist -> Lightning which means stone weak monster would be a lightning element being strong aganist lightning elements).

So advantage.. no - BLM will be inferior in those situations. Like gnats which are lightning element.

Advantage as in delivering nukes and magic attacks that aren't the monster's weakness, as in job trqit upping magic attack and gear focusing on int, the stat for offensive magic. Its not like they are as helpless as what people in this thread want white mage and conjurer to be.

[Shougun]

Advantage as in delivering nukes and magic attacks that aren't the monster's weakness, as in job trqit upping magic attack and gear focusing on int, the stat for offensive magic. Its not like they are as helpless as what people in this thread want white mage and conjurer to be.

Helpless no, but BLM would not have the advantage in that situation. Even a fully battle decked BLM vs "healing" decked WHM in that scenario WHM wins (if you attack by weakness you get like 2 to 3 times the damage - and the inverse of that if you are attacking by resistance). But like I said many posts ago, bosses dont seem to care about elements and there are very few stone weak monsters - so it never really became an issue in 1.0.

Of course if you want to make the magic wheel important then it would be. Some people have offered suggestions like designing content within the boss fight that goes around attacking the boss, like BLMs needed to nuke massive side swarms or charge machinery that damages the boss (and so they can ignore that the boss has resistance to their spells and still outdamage the WHM, without fking with the WHM).

[Alaltus]

really... the class/job designs for cnj/whm and thm/blm are fine...... The only thing the ideas of this thread can achieve is an attempt to make WHM more like WHM from some other game.

It's fine that it's not the same. Some jobs change a lot from one game to the next.

Actually, they don't. Freeze is good, flare is good if you have the balls to get close enough, and the other fire spells are fine if you need AoE. Blizzara isnt super powerful but is very useful when you need instant damage.

They have their uses sure, but they are utility based. If it wasn't for them being elemental and taking up possible slots for more single target elemental nukes, it would be fine but because they are it extremely limits Black Mage's options. They can't take advantage of any weaknesses, they can't avoid hitting enemy resistances. Because the utility dictates the use of the spell rather than the weaknesses and resistances of the enemy. Which is why Thm/Blm needs their spells revised, they should still have the utility but it should not be tied to one singular element.

edit:

For example they could make fire/ra/ga/flare blizzard/ra/ga/freeze Thunder/ra/ga/burst all single target nukes and bring back toggle or something similar. But that toggle/ability halved the potency of the nukes themselves or increased the spells mp cost. Replace certain other utility effects with abilities/spells and then you pretty much have the best of both worlds.