Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Altena]

Maybe, in the future, WHM and BLM can both gain Astral/Umbral spells when the number of abilities they can have will be more than five. If I remember correctly, the whole "15 Class skills, 5 'sub job' skills and 5 job skills" thing was only temporary. If that's the case, then I'd definitely be okay with WHM and BLM gaining Astral/Umbral spells.

But, locking WHM out of the elemental spells for their own class, and giving them to a different job for a different class?
No.

The idea of jobs from the horse's mouth (SE being the horse) was that jobs were meant to be more specialised. That being, a class had more flexibility such as solo'ing, dd'ing, healing etc - whereas a Job was more designed for party play, as it lacked that flexibility.

CNJ > WHM - becomes more of a healer
MRD > WAR - becomes more of a tank (loses access to things like invigorate and keen flurry for DD)
LNC > DRG - heavier DD (loses access to better survivability)
ARC > BRD - more supportive (loses some DD capability but gains party buffs)
THM > BLM - heavier DD (with AM's, hate reduction, mp conservation (convert) but loses survivibility)

Currently CNJ>WHM loses practically nothing, but gains some very potent healing (ie main healer).



I am open to Umbral/Astral (or light/dark) in the future but that doesn't fix the imbalance in the elemental chain.

[Kinseykinz]

The advanced job turns CNJ into a strong healer, but does not gimp to any extensive level, WHM's ability to be a DD.

At the moment, jobs don't gimp ANY of the classes they stem from. ALL jobs have access to their base class abilities.

I am not against changing the class system so that they become useful again at all, however I am against certain elements being tied up into a main healer job (ie WHM) which will indefinitely be gimped due to the fact they will not ever be able to be as strong as a main nuking class - otherwise that would cause an imbalance.

Just because some people, including yourself, don't see a value in the class system does not make it broken. The reasons the class system is underused at the moment are because:
1. Most of us were level capped when the jobs were first introduced. So not only did we not unlock the jobs in a 'normal' progression, but we are all basically at cap, running events and such that typically rely on jobs>classes.
2. There is little content in game at the moment where having the ability to use your cross-class skills makes classes>jobs. Plus, because classes allow you to equip a wide variety of skills from all available classes, the class system will always be most beneficial to folks who had the time to level multiple classes vs. people who only have 1-2 classes/jobs leveled.
3. They introduced the whole 'jobs' thing a little early in my personal opinion...but nonetheless, it's here now. But it got introduced BEFORE they raised level caps. This matters because many people see that jobs are only 5 skills different (and typically nice skills) than the classes and think...well, why would I want to NOT play the job...and why is the job not really that different than the base class? I'm not arguing that there is a huge difference at the moment, but there will be as the level caps raise and content is added.

My point, is the class vs job thing, is much more layered and complicated than people give it credit for.

More directly to your point: You are worried that as we level, White Mage will "continue" to get DD spells that outshine Black Mage. I promise you, that will simply not happen. I am basing this on the fact that Black Mage got Ancient Magics for most of it's Black Mage skills thus far, while White Mage got Restorative/Buffs and 1 'use all you MP to cast it' Astral by the way, not elemental Nuke.

Basically, as White Mage grows, SE is doing exactly what you want: NOT giving it Elemental Nukes, but curative and buffing magics/skills instead. (and seriously, the remaining 3 Ancient Magics will most likely be Black Mages as well...giving Black Mage at least one spell of each element which is again, what you want. But we'll need level cap and jobs to grow more first)

At the moment - WHM is pretty broken, in comparison to other jobs.
You can spiritbond your unfinished relic solo in just a few hours, when other jobs spend a solid day on it.
That isn't broken? Ok, then it's a great solo class... It can also push some heavy nukes when the time calls for it (against wind/stone weak mobs), and main heal a full party of 8.

White Mage use to be broken...horridly so, I will give you that. (I remember having to hit mobs with my stick in order to level...wth??!!) But it really isn't anymore. You wouldn't have so many people fighting you if they believed the Job to be broken as well. People are defending White Mage so hard because they LIKE how it works now.

As to relic, I have not gotten to that point yet, so I cant speak on that...if true, that isn't so much a WHM is OP issue as much as that portion of the relic questline wasn't properly balanced...which might have been fixed by SE if the servers weren't closed. (That whole quest I expect got some serious gameplay changes for ARR)

Even the folks who agree with you that they don't like that White Mage can outdamage a Black Mage in very specific instances, admit that in all actually, that is only against 3 types of open-world 'non boss' type mobs now. Even the 'WHM vs Moogle King Battle' is more a gimmick. It is done with 'Holy' Bombs...which cost the whm's all their MP.

So yes, in these very specific instances, due to it's survivability MORE than it's actually DD spell out put, WHM can win. (which actually comes more from it's GLA/PGL sub-class skills than WHM...sure, not knocking Regen, Protect or Stoneskin, but don't overlook the usefulness of Sentinel, Rampart and Second Wind). But I wouldn't say that they are an OP job compared to the other jobs by any sense. Being strong at a couple of things, doesn't make you Overpowered. If White Mage was still overskilling a balanced party, then yes, you'd be correct. But it really doesn't outshine any other job in normal party play....actually, if any party role came close to that, it would be the DD output of Black Mage.

CNJ has always been semi-broken, and the nerf in the job patch removed some of that over-power. In the early days, CNJ could solo Dodore . . .

And back before the jobs patch and a couple nerfs, THM's could ALSO solo this same mob. Point is, when the Devs saw both roles being able to kill Dodore solo, they fixed it. SE makes sure to keep the jobs/classes as balanced as possible. So by this logic, both White Mage and Black Mage are working as intended.

Two thing we can agree on I am sure is:
BLM is currently strong at doing ranged magic damage. (nothing else).
WHM (or CNJ) is currently fairly strong at solo'ing, exceptionally good at main healing, and reasonably solid nuking.

You say 'BLM is currently strong at doing ranged magic damage. (nothing else).' like that is a bad thing...like it is not enough. Black Mage is CONSISTANTLY the top DPSer in the game and has the highest spike damage potential. Period.
Also, you can solo on black mage every bit as effectively as white mage. Sure, there are some occasions where White Mage/CNJ gets lucky and finds a stone or air weak mob. But Black Mage can kill those things too, and they typically kill much faster than a White Mage so survival isn't an issue. The trick to blm is you need to kill it before it kills you.

Going back to Relics, my best friend and I farmed all our coins on black mage because of the AOE spells. Was far more efficient than White Mage OR CNJ would have been.

The fact is yes, you are indeed gimping one half of the elemental chain if you were to keep the utility based aero/stone/water on WHM.

These utility spells will never be as strong as a BLM nuke.
These spells are bound to half of the elemental chain.
This means that only half of the chain will be effective.

Again, these spells belong to a different 'chain' 'wheel' 'triangle' 'school' whatever you want to call it. Sure, Black Mage will probably see 'Quake' 'Tornado' and 'Flood' in Ancient Magics (because it IS possible to write that in lore+ it seems that that Black Mage IS in fact earning all of them), but the other spells are in the restorative school. I know you don't like it. I even understand the 'well what's a black mage going to do against a Thunder-resistant' or 'Earth-weak' mob? All I can say to that is 'trust the Dev team to create content that will be doable by Black Mages'...it might not be optimal, and you might hate that Black Mage is not the optimal DD for a battle or 2, but it happens to every other DD, and later on, we ALWAYS find ways to have Monks kill Ifrit when it use to be 'Lancer/Dragoon' only... etc.

Just as an example: IF there was an 'earth weak' boss, that boss might have multiple minions spawn that need to be slept/flared/etc. So even though Black Mages aren't the main boss DDer, people would still NEED them for the battle. Also, Monks would be the DD on an Earth Weak boss, not CNJ, not WHM. No party in their right mind would give up a curer for DDer.

I know my last sentence is what ticks you off. You think the spells are 'wasted'. I won't change your mind on that, but just because they are low damage/situational/cast by someone other than the black mage does not mean they are inherently wasted.

If they were to expand on CNJ or WHM's ability to nuke, that would push us back to an even more overpowered job then it currently is.

CNJ will get expanded nukes...I have no idea what types other than is won't be 'Ancient Magic' or at least shouldn't be. White Mage will not get any real nukes but in stead get bigger and better party buffs and heals I'm basing this on the fact that Holy is the only 'nuke' White Mage got, and it cost all their MP to cast it making it a gimmick or toy and not practical 98% of the time.

But here's the thing, both THM and Black Mage will get more nukes and abilities as well, and they will continue to out Spike Damage every other class or job.


Now, can we please end this? If your goal was to improve Black Mage, that's great. But the title of this topic will NEVER get you there. Because it started out in a bad place. 'Removing the elemental nukes from WHM' could be a point made in a 'Ideas on how to make Black Mage more fun to play' 'or Ideas to make Black Mage more engaging' etc. topic, but starting the conversation by basically implying that 'I want what those people over there have becuase it really should be mine anyway' isn't the best way to gain ideas, or have a friendly debate. Not only that, only ONE idea gets debated this way.

[Alhanelem]

BLM can be made more powerful without the cost of crippling CNJ/WHM's solo capability. The class/job would be a nightmare to level solo. Since you can't immediately change classes at the start of the game anymore, it's important to preserve that, lest some new player gets stuck with CNJ being horrendus at soloing and being forced to search for a buddy before he/she can level at all.

[Altena]

At the moment, jobs don't gimp ANY of the classes they stem from. ALL jobs have access to their base class abilities.

But lose access to useful cross-class abilities. (Such as Keen Flurry or Invigorate for MRD/ARC). They do gain better job only abilities, but yes the Class>Job change, does remove the ability to play that role in a slightly different way. The worst you lose for CNJ is what, Chameleon? If you are a WHM pulling hate, you really need to look at what you are doing or get a better tank. Other jobs lose access to far more useful abilities then their classes (as mentioned in my previous post).

So yes, you do lose useful abilities on pretty much all classes aside from WHM.

Just because some people, including yourself, don't see a value in the class system does not make it broken. The reasons the class system is underused at the moment are because:

1. Most of us were level capped when the jobs were first introduced. So not only did we not unlock the jobs in a 'normal' progression, but we are all basically at cap, running events and such that typically rely on jobs>classes.

Failing to see where the "value in the class system" is...

2. There is little content in game at the moment where having the ability to use your cross-class skills makes classes>jobs. Plus, because classes allow you to equip a wide variety of skills from all available classes, the class system will always be most beneficial to folks who had the time to level multiple classes vs. people who only have 1-2 classes/jobs leveled.

Still failing.. Are these comments meant to convince me that the class system isn't broken? As you said yourself, a Job's abilities are currently more useful than many class abilities.

3. They introduced the whole 'jobs' thing a little early in my personal opinion...but nonetheless, it's here now. But it got introduced BEFORE they raised level caps. This matters because many people see that jobs are only 5 skills different (and typically nice skills) than the classes and think...well, why would I want to NOT play the job...and why is the job not really that different than the base class? I'm not arguing that there is a huge difference at the moment, but there will be as the level caps raise and content is added.

Your opinion is going all over the place in this post. With a level cap increase, jobs are also going to get more abilities (yes along with classes), this means that we are on a parallel uphill climb. Classes will get slightly better generic abilities sure, but Jobs are going to continue to get more specific abilities / weapon skills / spells. Not to mention relics and legendary weapons / gear are currently designed for Job only.. The class-only gear is mediocre at best. I am stating what we know now, as we can sit here and speculate for hours.

My point, is the class vs job thing, is much more layered and complicated than people give it credit for.

Don't kid yourself. You just spent the last 4 paragraphs telling me how much better jobs are then classes.

More directly to your point: You are worried that as we level, White Mage will "continue" to get DD spells that outshine Black Mage. I promise you, that will simply not happen. I am basing this on the fact that Black Mage got Ancient Magics for most of it's Black Mage skills thus far, while White Mage got Restorative/Buffs and 1 'use all you MP to cast it' Astral by the way, not elemental Nuke.

NO. That is not my true concern, and every reply you have posted, you have either missed it or ignored it, despite me practically saying it in every single post in this thread. Let me repeat-

My major concern is that we have 6 elements in the game (ignoring light/dark).
Currently 3 of them are being used by a DD mage.
The other 3 are being used by a healer/hybrid.
In order for the elemental "wheel" (come at me) to be balanced, Aero, Stone, Water will have to be as strong as Fire, Thunder, Ice.
Currently this is not the case, currently 3 spells are being tied up in a job that is not designed as a heavy nuker.
This eliminates all possibility of using the elemental chain effectively.

The only alternative to fixing the elemental affinity, without changing the current spellset would be to release a separate job on top of CNJ, that has access to Aeroga, Wataga, Stonega, Tornado, Flood, Quake. Until that happens, the elemental chain will be lop-sided.

Basically, as White Mage grows, SE is doing exactly what you want: NOT giving it Elemental Nukes, but curative and buffing magics/skills instead. (and seriously, the remaining 3 Ancient Magics will most likely be Black Mages as well...giving Black Mage at least one spell of each element which is again, what you want. But we'll need level cap and jobs to grow more first)

So basically they are doing nothing to fix the problem?

White Mage use to be broken...horridly so, I will give you that. (I remember having to hit mobs with my stick in order to level...wth??!!) But it really isn't anymore. You wouldn't have so many people fighting you if they believed the Job to be broken as well. People are defending White Mage so hard because they LIKE how it works now.

CNJ was broken, WHM less-so (once they moved stuff around). Perhaps "broken" as the current WHM state is the wrong word. Overpowered? Probably. No job should be able to SB their unfinished relic in 1/4 of the time of other jobs solo. I am not requesting WHM to change in a battle mechanic as they are simply trading little gusts of wind for beams of light etc, and some slight affinity changes.. I will accept that CNJ fans may be a bit butthurt about losing their "elemental" spells though..

As to relic, I have not gotten to that point yet, so I cant speak on that...if true, that isn't so much a WHM is OP issue as much as that portion of the relic questline wasn't properly balanced...which might have been fixed by SE if the servers weren't closed. (That whole quest I expect got some serious gameplay changes for ARR)

No, that was a battle mechanic that was not balanced. WHM could tank, heal and nuke a large group of mobs. It was significantly more difficult to SB the other jobs.

Even the folks who agree with you that they don't like that White Mage can outdamage a Black Mage in very specific instances, admit that in all actually, that is only against 3 types of open-world 'non boss' type mobs now. Even the 'WHM vs Moogle King Battle' is more a gimmick. It is done with 'Holy' Bombs...which cost the whm's all their MP.

That isn't my main reason for this change, as mentioned above. Currently the elemental balance is broken. In order for these to be balanced, they need to be moved to a job where increasing their strength would not interrupt the main DD caster (BLM). Once again, Light based nukes will not decrease WHM's ability to deal significant damage, it simply isolates their element so that they aren't gimping down the rest of the elemental chain.

So yes, in these very specific instances, due to it's survivability MORE than it's actually DD spell out put, WHM can win. (which actually comes more from it's GLA/PGL sub-class skills than WHM...sure, not knocking Regen, Protect or Stoneskin, but don't overlook the usefulness of Sentinel, Rampart and Second Wind). But I wouldn't say that they are an OP job compared to the other jobs by any sense. Being strong at a couple of things, doesn't make you Overpowered. If White Mage was still overskilling a balanced party, then yes, you'd be correct. But it really doesn't outshine any other job in normal party play....actually, if any party role came close to that, it would be the DD output of Black Mage.

Mute point. BLM isn't overpowered as where it is great at dealing damage, it can't do anything else. Other jobs can perform as good / better then it based on certain mobs and battle mechanics.

And back before the jobs patch and a couple nerfs, THM's could ALSO solo this same mob. Point is, when the Devs saw both roles being able to kill Dodore solo, they fixed it. SE makes sure to keep the jobs/classes as balanced as possible. So by this logic, both White Mage and Black Mage are working as intended.

How is that logic? How does "changing both jobs so they can't solo something" suddenly make them balanced?
WHM is an excellent healer, great nuker, great solo'er.
BLM is an excellent nuker..

Is that balance?

You say 'BLM is currently strong at doing ranged magic damage. (nothing else).' like that is a bad thing...like it is not enough. Black Mage is CONSISTANTLY the top DPSer in the game and has the highest spike damage potential. Period.

Mob depending.

They are powerful, yes. They are more powerful then the only other ranged DPS - BRD, yes.
They are "more powerful" then DRG or MNK? Not sure about that one. Those 3 all come pretty close, mob depending, player depending, gear depending..

Giving them more elements, but removing some utility based skills would not be making them more powerful, in fact it could potentially make them less-so - as their abilities are pretty useful. It would simply improve their flexibility in spell casting, and add a touch more strategy to a currently braindead job.


[/quote]Also, you can solo on black mage every bit as effectively as white mage. Sure, there are some occasions where White Mage/CNJ gets lucky and finds a stone or air weak mob. But Black Mage can kill those things too, and they typically kill much faster than a White Mage so survival isn't an issue. The trick to blm is you need to kill it before it kills you. [/quote]

lolWhat? Please tell me you are joking.. There is a reason people finish SB'ing WHM relic 1/4 of the time it takes to do BLM. I hardly see "flashing red health and 50% mp" as an efficient way of solo'ing. You can pick off 1 or 2 Lv52~ mobs at a time? Sure, but compare that to WHM's ~5-10 mobs at a time? No I don't think so.

Going back to Relics, my best friend and I farmed all our coins on black mage because of the AOE spells. Was far more efficient than White Mage OR CNJ would have been.

Killing level 40 mobs with AoE spells is hard bro.

Again, these spells belong to a different 'chain' 'wheel' 'triangle' 'school' whatever you want to call it. Sure, Black Mage will probably see 'Quake' 'Tornado' and 'Flood' in Ancient Magics (because it IS possible to write that in lore+ it seems that that Black Mage IS in fact earning all of them), but the other spells are in the restorative school. I know you don't like it. I even understand the 'well what's a black mage going to do against a Thunder-resistant' or 'Earth-weak' mob? All I can say to that is 'trust the Dev team to create content that will be doable by Black Mages'...it might not be optimal, and you might hate that Black Mage is not the optimal DD for a battle or 2, but it happens to every other DD, and later on, we ALWAYS find ways to have Monks kill Ifrit when it use to be 'Lancer/Dragoon' only... etc.

Oh this lore argument again huh? It's a fantasy game... Write some far fetched story about some magical vortex sucking in all of the CNJ's powers for wind and earth and it is perfectly possible. A good story? Possibly not, but definitely a possible option.

As for Light being part of a different chain - yes, that is indeed correct - and the whole damn point! Give BLM the main elemental chain and you have 6 spells that are equal, each one overpowering another, and that is effectively a "wheel".

Give WHM a "light" and another job a "dark", make the potency the same, and you have just created a "wheel". Basically as long as each element in the wheel/chain/monkeybottom is equal - then there would be absolutely no issue.

As long as all of the elements in a wheel or chain are on the same level - the chain/wheel is not unbalanced. Currently, Aero, Stone, Water will always be gimped as stated above.

Just as an example: IF there was an 'earth weak' boss, that boss might have multiple minions spawn that need to be slept/flared/etc. So even though Black Mages aren't the main boss DDer, people would still NEED them for the battle. Also, Monks would be the DD on an Earth Weak boss, not CNJ, not WHM. No party in their right mind would give up a curer for DDer.

That isn't really where I am coming from. The spellcasting mechanic that I would rather see is something like- Ramuh is weak to Earth. So BLM's use earth based attacks on Ramuh to get higher crits. I was also a huge fan (sorry to bring up dirty XI again) but of things such as elemental bonus based on weather. (Thunderstorms increase lightning damage, rain increases water damage) etc.. I would much rather see that sort of mechanic put back into the game. That is what I mean about elemental affinity... Not "some random mob in some place is weak to fire so blm's kill the adds and CNJ nukes the boss" or whatever..

I know my last sentence is what ticks you off. You think the spells are 'wasted'. I won't change your mind on that, but just because they are low damage/situational/cast by someone other than the black mage does not mean they are inherently wasted.

Sure it does. Every single mob in the game that is weak to Stone, Wind, and Water are having a party, and all of the BLM's are invited!!

Having half of the elemental chain gimped, makes the chain practically meaningless.

CNJ will get expanded nukes...I have no idea what types other than is won't be 'Ancient Magic' or at least shouldn't be. White Mage will not get any real nukes but in stead get bigger and better party buffs and heals I'm basing this on the fact that Holy is the only 'nuke' White Mage got, and it cost all their MP to cast it making it a gimmick or toy and not practical 98% of the time.

Holy isn't practical? God damn, I must be doing it wrong, because Holy is pretty damn useful in a lot of the content I have played . . .

But here's the thing, both THM and Black Mage will get more nukes and abilities as well, and they will continue to out Spike Damage every other class or job.

Gear, mob, player dependent - as I previously stated. It's a big call, and an incorrect one at that.

Now, can we please end this? If your goal was to improve Black Mage, that's great. But the title of this topic will NEVER get you there. Because it started out in a bad place. 'Removing the elemental nukes from WHM' could be a point made in a 'Ideas on how to make Black Mage more fun to play' 'or Ideas to make Black Mage more engaging' etc. topic, but starting the conversation by basically implying that 'I want what those people over there have becuase it really should be mine anyway' isn't the best way to gain ideas, or have a friendly debate. Not only that, only ONE idea gets debated this way.

Fine, .dat swap the subject line then. I could call it "aksdhjabhdjkabsd" and you still wouldn't have a different opinion. If you don't like this thread then you don't have to read or post in it.

For your information I have both WHM and BLM levelled... I play WHM almost as much as I play BLM. Neither are my main jobs. I have held off on a good chunk (not all) of the bickering in this thread as the real purpose of this, as stated in the OP was to improve elemental affinity, and making BLM more fun to play - while not changing WHM in a significant way.

[Altena]

BLM can be made more powerful without the cost of crippling CNJ/WHM's solo capability. The class/job would be a nightmare to level solo. Since you can't immediately change classes at the start of the game anymore, it's important to preserve that, lest some new player gets stuck with CNJ being horrendus at soloing and being forced to search for a buddy before he/she can level at all.

Because soloing with Light magic would be sooooo much slower then Aero/Stone

*facepalm*.

Why do so many people get the impression that the intention is to remove WHM's source of damage when 90% of my posts are basically saying that WHM would not lose any form of damage capabilities if they were simply .dat swapped and given different names. . . .

[Bowen]

Ramuh isn't going to be a huge issue. MNKs can just FoE while CNJ/WHMs use Stone/Stonera. Who cares if BLM/THM isn't viable for one fight? It is stacked in jus about every other, so I think that it is fine that way.

You aren't concerned about what is good for WHM/CNJ, you are concerned about what you want for BLM/THM.

[Altena]

Ramuh isn't going to be a huge issue. MNKs can just FoE while CNJ/WHMs use Stone/Stonera. Who cares if BLM/THM isn't viable for one fight? It is stacked in jus about every other, so I think that it is fine that way.

You aren't concerned about what is good for WHM/CNJ, you are concerned about what you want for BLM/THM.

Elemental fists were getting removed, IIRC according to Yoshi in one of the live letters.

As I stated, this thread is about 2 things, and 2 things only.
Making BLM less boring to play.
Fixing the elemental affinity.

WHM is well and truly unaffected in terms of functionality. They can and would still be able to heal, solo and nuke on the same level.

[Kinseykinz]

because I said so...

Being a jerk to everyone doesn't make your points more valid. If you find Black Mage so gosh darn boring to play...for the Twelves sake, DON'T PLAY IT!

[Altena]

Being a jerk to everyone doesn't make your points more valid. If you find Black Mage so gosh darn boring to play...for the Twelves sake, DON'T PLAY IT!

Nice, a personal attack.

I am a jerk because my opinions aren't yours by the sounds of it, as I have done nothing apart from disagree with the points you have attempted to make.

Playing BLM in content because it is optimal, is a bearable reason to play it, despite it being a boring job.
Is there something wrong with improving a boring job? It is pretty widely known to be boring. A lot of people think the job is boring, and facerollingly easy to play.

[Kinseykinz]

You post # 12

Cool story bro.

Your post #27

Link your thread and call it a day. Don't really want this topic to be derailed.

Your post #116

Also, you sound tense. I think you need a massage.

Wow you are blowing everything out of proportion here. ...if I may kindly remind you...

You might think this is nice, but really you are talking down to him here

In the same post you go on to say

You keep falling back to this all important epic storyline that only 1/4 of the community probably actually read / followed instead of enter spam. I can have a guess that some of your beloved "lore" will be modified on some level in order to fit into the direction of the game.

You sound really angry. Elemental spells have predominantly been black magic, not white. See my example above.

Yep I am trying to break the game and make it absolutely unbearable for you to play a class that is sub-optimal for practically any content worth talking about. I am in this to destroy your gaming experience by changing a couple of spell names and enhancing elemental affinity across the board of the game... I am evil and I am out to get you...

Post #117

I couldn't give a rats about mages all in all. I barely play them and only play them if I have to.

I am not completely close minded, and if someone has suggestions on improving the currently boring battle mechanic that BLM has, I am yet to see that post. To be honest I think there are a lot more close minded CNJ lovers on here.

#154

Eh people seemed to derail off the point once again so I gave up for a while there.

However this topic keeps going off on a strange & twisted tangent so I've pretty much given up on the thread.
Have fun chasing each other's tail !

#158

In other words people should read posts, instead of hitting the reply button straight after reading the subject line.

#160 ...in response to the poster you told to read the posts calling you out on your rudeness:

Nope, I'm peachy But my statement still stands.

#165

People seem to really love this "lore" argument. Perhaps it's because it is the only thing holding that opinion together.

Don't give me that CNJ rubbish either. The only time you will ever use CNJ is possibly when you are solo'ing. Even then, you lack an extremely nice WHM only buff - Regen.

#198

Kinsey - I will call it a Wheel all I like, people including yourself know what I have been referring to, so it's just a weak pry at a pathetic argument about semantics.

Regardless how the "elemental wheel" (come at me) is constructed, currently the BLM line of spells are more flexible and powerful then those on the WHM skill set.

Once again if you read my OP, and following replies, you will notice that I am asking for ideas / discussion in order to fix the current issue of a lack luster elemental wheel, and a boring job (BLM), and I am yet to actually see ideas or compromises that would effectively improve the current issue.

You throw my opinion back in my face, and I will continue to throw yours. Once you come up with a compromise that would improve the issue that is stated in the OP (BLM being boring, lack of elemental affinity), I will take your posts with a grain of salt.

When you have some creative input, then I will listen.

#219

#247

Because soloing with Light magic would be sooooo much slower then Aero/Stone

*facepalm*.

This doesn't even include when you are just simply arguing with people but at least doing it in a civil manner.

Did people get snippy and snarky with you? Sure, sure they did. But, don't even try to pretend you have been polite to people. Because of all the posters and postings in this thread, you are the only person consistantly being a jerk about it. Simply because not everyone sees it YOUR way.