Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Altena]

As I have stated multiple times, if you guys can come up with another alternative to balance elemental affinity (perhaps with a 3rd mage job, such as Blue Mage or Green Mage) then I am all ears! The OP was just a suggestion on how it could be balanced. I'm not going to spit back arguments about all the stuff that was said since my last post because it has already been said in the previous 29 pages.

Zantet's post is a good example in how to make this thread progress.

In regards to that Zantets the only issue I can see with this is it still doesn't balance the wheel, so CNJ may as well keep their spells, unless it was more about opening up the possibility of balancing it in future level caps - then that would be a pretty good solution.

It would also improve the class/job differentiation.

[Alaltus]

Who says it needs to be balanced in the way you describe? the game won't implode if stone doesn't hit for 999. But i'll give it a go anyway even if this is a bit beyound just changing Black Mage and White Mage. I may as well put down the sort of thing i would like to see from the class/job system. I still want to see what SE will come out with in beta yet however.

In this example the classes in question can switch between the two jobs or vice versa, depending on how you want to look at it. The lore i'm going with here is that conjurer is the school of magic residing over the elements of nature and thaumaturge is the school of magic residing over the elements of destruction. White mage is a path to entreat aid from the elementals by soothing and calming them(Or something like that). Black mage is the path of angering them and using their wrath against your foes.

Note: i'm not listing every single spell a class/job would/could have just throwing down the relevant ones to describe the idea.

Conjurer - Stone/ra, Aero/ra, Water/ra, Cure, Stoneskin, Blink, Aqua Veil, Barstone, Baraero, Barwater.

Thaumaturge - Fire/ra, Blizzard/ra, Thunder/ra, Cure, Blaze Spikes*, Ice Spikes*, Shock Spikes*, Barfire, Barblizzard, Barthunder.

(*just an example but bear in mind they could work very differently from before.)

White Mage

White Mage provides the rest of the cure line, ailment removal line, divine spells etc etc but at the cost of their offensive elemental spells (possibly a Sacrifice line instead of Cure in the case of Thaumaturge?)

Conjurer ~ White Mage - Cure/ra/ga, Stoneskin, Blink, Aqua Veil, Barstonera*, Baraera*, Barwatera*.

Thaumaturge ~ White Mage - Cure/ra/ga, Blaze Spikes, Ice Spikes, Shock Spikes, Barfira*, Barblizzara*, Barthundara*.

(*Single target barspells upgrade to aoe ra spells upon switching)

A white mage thaumaturge would differentiate itself from a white mage conjurer by what elements it used to aid the party. So while a conjurer white mage would have stoneskin, blink and aqua veil as an example. Thaumaturge would have a completely different set of elemental enhancing spells. You could do the same with Bar spells making one kind of white mage prevalent over the other, depending on the content. Though restricting barspells specifically may not be desireable and not a must.

Black Mage

Black Mage provides the ancient magic corresponding to the elements weilded by the equipped class. Certain utility based debuff spells, dark spells etc etc but at the cost of Cure and their elemental enhancement spells.

Conjurer ~ Black Mage - Stone/ra, Aero/ra, Water/ra, Quake, Tornado, Flood

Thaumaturge ~ Black Mage - Fire/ra, Blizzard/ra, Thunder/ra, Flare, Freeze, Burst,

With Black mage it works much the same way, focusing on the classes strengths for the role. Black mage conjurer would specialise in earth, wind, water damage output. Learning quake, tornado and flood instead of flare etc. I'm not talking about implementing these spells in the same utility mess as they were in 1.0 but in their raw damage dealing form.

All of the combinations would be relatively the same just differ in what elements they focus on to get the job done. This limits black mage's ability to produce optimal output in some content whilst also allowing them more access to the elements (provided they lv Conjurer). This limits white mage's dd power whilst allowing for more benefits from multiple white mage within a party/group as well as increases the possible pool of white mages in game. As for what abilities and such each class would have and lend to their jobs roles i'll leave that up to your imagination. =P

TLDR: White mage and black mage could benefit from being more open to other magic disciplines rather than being tied down to a single class.

[Kinseykinz]

Conjurer - Stone/ra, Aero/ra, Water/ra, Cure, Stoneskin, Blink, Aqua Veil, Barstone, Baraero, Barwater.

Thaumaturge - Fire/ra, Blizzard/ra, Thunder/ra, Cure, Blaze Spikes*, Ice Spikes*, Shock Spikes*, Barfire, Barblizzard, Barthunder.


Conjurer ~ Black Mage - Stone/ra, Aero/ra, Water/ra, Quake, Tornado, Flood

Thaumaturge ~ Black Mage - Fire/ra, Blizzard/ra, Thunder/ra, Flare, Freeze, Burst,


TLDR: White mage and black mage could benefit from being more open to other magic disciplines rather than being tied down to a single class.

1. If you had 2 jobs split across two classes, that would make even less sense to most people. People would constantly be asking 'why didn't they just lump that all together.' The reason this topic is even on the forums currently, is because some people don't think CNJ/WHM having the stone/aero line of spells over BLM is wrong. So you're basically asking for more of this 'split skills' stuff not more.

2. Once again, you can't just change the rules for mages and NOT change them for all other classes/jobs...so you DO have to consider how this would balance and be done with the other party roles. (I know you were trying to save time, but you must balance all party roles to make any change like this balanced and possible)

3. Elemental Bar-spells and Spike spells are potentially slotted for other mage casters or as higher level CNJ/WHM THM/BLM spells.

4. If you wanted to only be a 'Black Mage' or 'White Mage' you would have to fully level both THM and CNJ to cap so that you could switch between the roles as needed. (which is exactly what we had to do under the old pre-job system and many people hated that)

5. This would limit what types of battle and dungeon content could be created. To my knowledge we will not be able to switch jobs/classes once we enter and instanced dungeon or battle in ARR.

[Alaltus]

1. If you had 2 jobs split across two classes, that would make even less sense to most people. People would constantly be asking 'why didn't they just lump that all together.' The reason this topic is even on the forums currently, is because some people don't think CNJ/WHM having the stone/aero line of spells over BLM is wrong. So you're basically asking for more of this 'split skills' stuff not more.

Well you can see it that way sure but the main concept is that the classes are just different forms of fighting that you can choose from as the job. Like building up weapon profiency. It's no worse than having to level every other class to 30 or more.

2. Once again, you can't just change the rules for mages and NOT change them for all other classes/jobs...so you DO have to consider how this would balance and be done with the other party roles. (I know you were trying to save time, but you must balance all party roles to make any change like this balanced and possible)

I agree just illustrating one way how jobs in this case whm and blm could harness both schools of magic.

3. Elemental Bar-spells and Spike spells are potentially slotted for other mage casters or as higher level CNJ/WHM THM/BLM spells.

Keyword: potentially, i can use them as an example without the sky falling. Any and all skills are potentially able to be given to another class.

4. If you wanted to only be a 'Black Mage' or 'White Mage' you would have to fully level both THM and CNJ to cap so that you could switch between the roles as needed. (which is exactly what we had to do under the old pre-job system and many people hated that)

I'm not trying to suggest it's a perfect solution but unlike the 1.0 debacle the spells and skills you have access to will not be just about all available to each and every class. In this case with jobs you would have to level 2 classes... maybe more later. Though in the case of melee classes you'd be choosing between differing styles of damaging enemies so i'll admit the change would probbably be less extreme for them.

5. This would limit what types of battle and dungeon content could be created. To my knowledge we will not be able to switch jobs/classes once we enter and instanced dungeon or battle in ARR.

SE will design content around the systems they design if thats what you mean by limit. The whole point i'm making is that a Black Mage would not be able to go into a dungeon and casually switch between each element blasting away at optimal output. That doesn't mean they would be useless but they would have to consider wether thaumaturge(fire, ice, thunder) or conjurer(stone, wind, water) would be best for the run as a whole. Like you might decide to go thaumaturge because most of the enemies are weak to thunder in a dungeon or you might go conjurer because the final boss is weak to earth. Rather than "ooo look monsters everyone cast the elemental aoe spell they are weak to on my mark" all enemies die before getting to act being the answer to largely every encounter.

[Kinseykinz]

I prefer this fix: Individual JOB restrictions/licenses on cross-class abilities and spells.

How it works now:

BLM can use all THM skills as well as all shareable class skills from both PGL and ARC.
WHM can use all CNJ skills as well as all shareable class skills from both GLD and PGL.

How it might work with individual job skill restrictions/licenses:

BLM gains access to all THM skills except Necrogenesis and Parsimony. - Can equip: Aero(ra), Water(ra), and Stone(ra), Decoy, Chameleon, Second Wind, and Stoneskin.

WHM gains access to all CNJ skills except Aero(ra), Water(ra), and Stone(ra). - Can equip: Resonance, Sanguine Rite, Outmaneuver, Sentinel, Tempered Will, Chameleon, Featherfoot, and Second Wind.

Except this would need to happen to ALL classes and Jobs in order to be balanced...

So what skills should PLD drop from GLA to gain from CNJ...and how will this help them as main tank?
What skills should BRD drop from Archer but gain from from CNJ...yeah, CNJ. I'm sure that'd balance out and keep bard DPS levels decent.
What skills should WAR drop from MRD but gain from GLA...and how will that not make them overpower PLD as tank rendering PLD useless. :P

Also, by what in game dynamic can Black Mage suddenly equip skills that don't even come from one of the base classes required to unlocking the role in the first place? If your intention is that the 'skills each job would really want' are handed to them, regardless of the base class they come from (IE NOT one of the 2 classes required for unlocking that job), then you've just made the class system useless...


Also, Holy can't be White Mages only defensive spell...and that is all you're leaving them with. Just because they are supposed to be Main Healers doesn't mean we should make them sitting ducks. (Just to be clear, every class/job has at least one self-heal skill available to them so that they can heal themselves in an 'oh crap moment'...WHM has heals naturally they need a nuke to defend themselves in an 'oh crap moment') Holy is not a practical spell as it eats all of WHM's MP.



The jobs are supposed to just amplify the base classes natural strengths....everything else has been said before about the hows and whys.

[Jinrya-Geki]

Balancing the spells doesn't matter at all.

It's either give black mage all spells and give white mage only holy-type spells, or enemies must lose all resistance to elemental damage. Because there will never be a happy medium with the spells split up like this.

If the split continues and the spells stay exactly the same, Black mage will hit a wall against any mobs resistant to lightning. And when white mage sees the wall coming it can laugh and walk around it for the simple fact that "Ok if I can't hurt it, then I'll just heal".

All the while the black mage will have to slam it's face into the wall of resistance.

[Kallera]

Balancing the spells doesn't matter at all.

It's either give black mage all spells and give white mage only holy-type spells, or enemies must lose all resistance to elemental damage. Because there will never be a happy medium with the spells split up like this.

If the split continues and the spells stay exactly the same, Black mage will hit a wall against any mobs resistant to lightning. And when white mage sees the wall coming it can laugh and walk around it for the simple fact that "Ok if I can't hurt it, then I'll just heal".

All the while the black mage will have to slam it's face into the wall of resistance.

Or the black mage can, you know, not use his thunder spells or he can use chains that don't end with thunder. He's still going to have an advantage in magical attack with his gear and traits.

[Jinrya-Geki]

I wonder if you played Black Mage enough to know Fire and Ice spells really suck.

[Alaltus]

I wonder if you played Black Mage enough to know Fire and Ice spells really suck.

We all know they suck its been said about a zillion times but the issue is how those spells were designed not the elements themselves. Fix them and then what exactly is the issue?

[Shougun]

Or the black mage can, you know, not use his thunder spells or he can use chains that don't end with thunder. He's still going to have an advantage in magical attack with his gear and traits.

Besides blizzard and freeze the other elements are aoe, that and their damage isn't to match the thunder combo (flare DoT is nice though).

Or further that if WHM is fighting stone weak monsters it probably means its resistant to lightning (if irc Earth strong aganist -> Lightning which means stone weak monster would be a lightning element being strong aganist lightning elements).

So advantage.. no - BLM will be inferior in those situations. Like gnats which are lightning element.