Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Radacci]

You know what I think would be great for all classes and jobs, okay we know that at some stage after the launch of ARR we'll be having a cap raise, so, for each class and job make every skill learn't after lvl 50 class exclusive and job exclusive, meaning that for say Cnj and Whm, Cnj will be able to use all of it's skills up to 50 and past 50, whilst Whm could only use Cnj's skills up to lvl 50, from that point on Whm could get more of it's own exclusive abilities and with there being no new Cnj skills to apply there'd be room for Whm's new moves.

My grand idea would be to have Cnj from lvl 50 onwards learn it's own exclusive skills whereby only Cnj can equip them, whilst Whm would continue evolving it's own skillset. This idea would leave room for the exclusive abilities, allow each job and it's associated class to grow their own personality so to speak and become much more diverse than Whm just being an extension of Cnj.

or WHM should be its own class, with its own personality, and traits, to begin with
It shouldn't take to lv75 or whatever, for a job to start being independent, and have a good skill set selection.

[Alhanelem]

Since this thread has moved so fast I'm reposting what I said several pages back for good measure:

WHM has the spells is has for two main reasons:
1)Increased flexibility so as to not be helpless in solo play
2)Ability to defend oneself to some extent in PvP

Removing these spells would be detremental. I don't really give a rats behind if any WHM in any other game learned the spells or not, or what spells WHM "usually" learns. Let's just squelch developer creativity to match one player's vision!

I think these points are solidified by the Cleric Stance ability, giving you the ability to pull out your damage spells if you really need them, or maximize your healing for when that's your primary role.

[Reika]

Since this thread has moved so fast I'm reposting what I said several pages back for good measure:



I think these points are solidified by the Cleric Stance ability, giving you the ability to pull out your damage spells if you really need them, or maximize your healing for when that's your primary role.

All that does is bring up yet another balance flaw.... WHM shouldn't be able abilities to increase their Attack M potency at all. That is just another ability you shouldnt be able to use when you equip the sould of the WHM. If WHM wants to do some damage, it should unequip soul of the WHM and become a CNJ to get its Attack M Potency.

Of course people would not be ok with BLM being able to heal, and having an ability called Sorcerous stance, which increases Healing M potency at the cost of attack M Potency :/. You make it seem like all this anti-remove elemental spells crying is to be able to Heal and DD at the the same time. Broken is broken.

How unbalanced people seem to want this game to be. I hope that ability is erased in ARR or fixed to be WHM unusable.

[Altena]

Eh people seemed to derail off the point once again so I gave up for a while there.

Alhanelem: My original suggestion wasn't to remove WHM's ability to be offensive, but to simply open up the spectrum of elemental affinity by giving WHM more consistent spells (that have low resistance), and giving BLM the full elemental wheel, to be able to take advantage of elemental weaknesses.

So a sideways trade for WHM, but an upgrade for BLM & the elemental affinity that is currently barely existent..

However this topic keeps going off on a strange & twisted tangent so I've pretty much given up on the thread.
Have fun chasing each other's tail !

[Kinseykinz]

Eh people seemed to derail off the point once again so I gave up for a while there.

Alhanelem: My original suggestion wasn't to remove WHM's ability to be offensive, but to simply open up the spectrum of elemental affinity by giving WHM more consistent spells (that have low resistance), and giving BLM the full elemental wheel, to be able to take advantage of elemental weaknesses.

So a sideways trade for WHM, but an upgrade for BLM & the elemental affinity that is currently barely existent..

However this topic keeps going off on a strange & twisted tangent so I've pretty much given up on the thread.
Have fun chasing each other's tail !

So how exactly do you think the Elemental Wheel works in this game? I'm curious because your understanding of this+the actual game lore seems to be where you keep tripping over your sneakers.

[Altena]

So how exactly do you think the Elemental Wheel works in this game? I'm curious because your understanding of this+the actual game lore seems to be where you keep tripping over your sneakers.

It has been said a long time ago that the wheel was going back to Water puts out Fire, Fire melts Ice, etc etc.

The umbral/astral wheel was supposedly getting abolished.

Either way, you are still gimping 1 side of the wheel by giving the spells to a main healing class.

[Lady]

It has been said a long time ago that the wheel was going back to Water puts out Fire, Fire melts Ice, etc etc.

Where was this said? post please

[Altena]

Where was this said? post please

Ages ago. Early early days. Don't have a source for you.

"Supposedly" was the keyword in my last post. May not happen either.

*edit*

Tried to find it for you but couldn't. Could of been a game of chinese whispers, and probably just heard it from someone who heard it from someone. Eh, the current wheel is still lop sided either way.

[Kinseykinz]

It has been said a long time ago that the wheel was going back to Water puts out Fire, Fire melts Ice, etc etc.

The umbral/astral wheel was supposedly getting abolished.

Either way, you are still gimping 1 side of the wheel by giving the spells to a main healing class.

So even though you KNOW it's not a wheel, you're going to keep calling it that. And don't give me the 'but the blm needs the other triangle of spells thing' They don't. See, the in game lore you keep saying doesn't matter was divided into '2 magic schools' even before the mages were.

Your problem at the end of the day is that you wanna see green and brown colors shoot out of the Black Mages hands. Because that will some how make it magically work better. But the reality is, that will change nothing of it's function. If you think the role is broken (which honestly, it was one of the most effective DD's in 1.0 so I don't buy this) but fine, you think it's broken...then talk about how to fix it's actual functionality...not about the spells another mage can cast that you want...because it makes sense to you based on a game you once played...

Why DID blm supposedly only use 'Thunder chains' It had access to other spells...why were mages not using those. Maybe fix that first (again, it doesn't need fixed...I used basically every spell on my BLM bar, effectively...even the blizzard lines so I'm not sure why people think it was a 'Thunder' Mage)

Lastly, you are not getting the fact that Jobs aren't >Classes. Classes have their own uses and purposes. CNJ was not meant to be main healer...they can heal yes, but they can DD too. They are a hybrid, their damage and healing are balanced with their skillsets, but a CNJ will not outshine a THM or BLM on DD....even now. A THM with Wind or Earth equipment equipped can in fact, cast Stone and Aero for the same (if not occasionally better) Damage than CNJ. This is due to all the SKILLS THM gets like 'Enhanced Magic Potency' and 'Enhanced Magic Critical Potency' boosts. Not to mention timer skills like Excruciate and Dark Seal.

BLM vs WHM DD is even a greater disparity. Sure, once again WHM can cast the Stone>Aero line of spells. But if they want to DD effectively and at full power, they must 'Cleric Stance' and weaken their healing ability to do so. So once again...they are an excellent healer and modest DD...at best. But BLM with powers like 'convert' can do an amazing amount of DD. They typically out DD EVERYONE else in the party...and I most def. have never been in a party wherein the WHM out performed the BLM on damage....ever.

Which brings me back to 'Why do you need these 4 spells again?' Because you are bored? Well BLM can be tweaked to include different abilities functions if that is the case, but it doesn't NEED these 4 spells to fix that....not only that, even if you had Aero and Stone, you still would never cast them...you'd cast Thunder 80% of the time. Although if you expect stone to retain it's debuff (which it wouldn't if CNJ/WHM was no longer it's caster) then you'd do Stone>Thunder until stone drops>stone>thunder until stone drops.

Black mage IS a park and bark caster. Once a mobs weakness is discovered, you just cast the most effective spell over and over and over until you are the mob are dead. This won't change even ifyou have 100's of spells, you will still cast the 'most effective' spells. This game's go to 'effective' spell is Thunder-chaining...getting extra spells won't correct that. You'd be better off asking for mobs that change their elemental weaknesses then asking to 'fix' blm by 'screwing' WHM

[Reika]

Lastly, you are not getting the fact that Jobs aren't >Classes. Classes have their own uses and purposes. CNJ was not meant to be main healer...they can heal yes, but they can DD too. They are a hybrid, their damage and healing are balanced with their skillsets, but a CNJ will not outshine a THM or BLM on DD....even now. A THM with Wind or Earth equipment equipped can in fact, cast Stone and Aero for the same (if not occasionally better) Damage than CNJ. This is due to all the SKILLS THM gets like 'Enhanced Magic Potency' and 'Enhanced Magic Critical Potency' boosts. Not to mention timer skills like Excruciate and Dark Seal.

I don't think youve figured this out yet, but jobs are ADVANCED classes in this game. If you decide to play without the job soul equipped, solo or party, your gimped. One part of this broken system.

BLM vs WHM DD is even a greater disparity. Sure, once again WHM can cast the Stone>Aero line of spells. But if they want to DD effectively and at full power, they must 'Cleric Stance' and weaken their healing ability to do so. So once again...they are an excellent healer and modest DD...at best. But BLM with powers like 'convert' can do an amazing amount of DD. They typically out DD EVERYONE else in the party...and I most def. have never been in a party wherein the WHM out performed the BLM on damage....ever.

Do you have any qualms with BLM becoming and excellent DD and modest healer? I hope you dont. But, I'm pretty sure the answer will be "But... But.... the lore!!!".

Which brings me back to 'Why do you need these 4 spells again?' Because you are bored? Well BLM can be tweaked to include different abilities functions if that is the case, but it doesn't NEED these 4 spells to fix that....not only that, even if you had Aero and Stone, you still would never cast them...you'd cast Thunder 80% of the time. Although if you expect stone to retain it's debuff (which it wouldn't if CNJ/WHM was no longer it's caster) then you'd do Stone>Thunder until stone drops>stone>thunder until stone drops.

Black mage IS a park and bark caster. Once a mobs weakness is discovered, you just cast the most effective spell over and over and over until you are the mob are dead. This won't change even ifyou have 100's of spells, you will still cast the 'most effective' spells. This game's go to 'effective' spell is Thunder-chaining...getting extra spells won't correct that. You'd be better off asking for mobs that change their elemental weaknesses then asking to 'fix' blm by 'screwing' WHM

BLM needs access to all of them. If one would call WHM the Healing superiority of FFXIV, then BLM should be the elemental superiority of XIV. There was a time where CNJ had all the elemental spells and THM had Scourge and Banish, and no qualms came from me about that. If they had shifted ALL of the elemental spells from CNJ to THM as they took away Scourge, banish, and all heals and resurrect, while giving CNJ those with all the heals and best raising ability for use on their JOBS, it would have been totally fine.