Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Kinseykinz]

I believe BLM still needs a non elemental nuke for the moments when his elements are being resisted, but thats all in due time I guess. Specially with out the class/job stuff is structured atm. I'm hoping sooner then later though.

And Black Mages should, and probably will, get this post level 50. We're only mid-level at the moment, which is why blm feels a bit 'lack luster' to some. They want to rain holy terror down from the skies, but if they had that ability mid-level, what the heck could SE give them at true 'end level' cap that wouldn't just blow the game balance. I'd love Black mage getting and 'umbral spike' type of spell that is basically a cheap, low damage dart they could have. Maybe if combo'd with another umbral dd spell, it could bio or something. But this is probably a 'post' level 50 addition.

Also, while this is speculation, I do believe that the 'Ancient Magics'...ALL of them, will belong to Black Mage. (I'd explain my logic behind this but it's not really that important) Basically, I just don't see SE giving White Mage Quake, Flood or Tornado...but instead, bigger and better party buffs and heals, maybe 1-2 more damage dealing LIGHT-based spells...these will further separate it from it's base class of CNJ and def. from Black Mage. At any rate, even though I believe CNJ/WHM should keep their current Stone/Aero tiers of spells, I think it also is best if the Ancient Magics are Black Mage, and I think it is easy to create lore and story that support this...

Basically, Black Mages need to wait a bit longer, but I'm positive you will get a better mix of what you want without compromising CNJ WHM. This is why I'm in camp 'Don't touch my CNJ/WHM bro'

[Reika]

Who died and had you make the rules? WHM can be anything they (SE) want it to be. And if you think all WHM has ever done in Final Fantasy is heal, you're dead wrong. Perhaps they didn't use wind and earth elements, mind you. But WHMs have been known for killing evil beings and undead. FFXI's WHM was the worst at this of any form of WHM, in all actuality. Also there is tons of precedent for healers that also can fight back in general fantasy terms:

WoW: priest had the shadow tree which enhanced offensive capability.
Fire Emblem had multiple healing classes that could also wield weapons or damage magic: War Monk (aka War Priest) and trickster whom wield staves (healing 'weapons" in the series)
Dungeons & Dragons (both online and tabletop) had clerics- Whom have some proficency with certain weapons- by way of Feats and/or subclassing, you could create what were commonly known as "Battle Clerics" who could fight as well as heal (Paladins in the game are similar, except with more fighting ability and less magic ability). Or you could make a Chaotic Evil aligned cleric- This transforms all Cure Wounds spells into Create Wounds spells and Heal into Harm.

*cues joke about the guy the WHM killed being the "who"*

You can't do this in the middle of a fight. Why change jobs anyway when you can simply temporarily activate a stance?

Again, as I explained before, CNJ/WHM get these spells for solo and PvP viability. That's also pretty much the only reason WHM had any damage magic at all in FFXI. If the only thing you can do is healing, that leads to a very dull class that people only play out of necessity, not because it's fun to play. Obviously other classes are capable of more damage, but it's there in a pinch if you really need it. Also, your reasoning behind your statement is flawed, because jobs only add capabilities to a class- they don't remove anything except the ability to sub abilities from any other class. So whatever attack magic potency CNJ has, WHM inherits.

Just because you want the job to be singular in purpose doesn't mean everyone else does. Open the mind, think outside the box.

Thats it.. all you're in favor of is WHM staying a multi-role class where as the job systems purpose was to give a class ONE role in the party.

I think I would rather motion for BLM to recieve its heals and resurrect back, as well as some of the debuffs it lost so it can become an excelent DD and moderate healer, so now it can have 2 roles.

PLD should get a stance that increases its attack power by 40% while reducing its defense by and enmity eneration by 30%, giving it another role.

MNK should be given a stance that increases its evasion by 60%, enmity generation by 40% and reduces attack power by 40% giving it another role.

BRD should get a stance that reduces all song effects by 60% while increasing its attack power by 60%
. . . . . . . .

[Alaltus]

I dont get the first part, BLM rape toads because they are weak to lightning. And yes I would be upset if CNJ/WHM is a better DD on -any- content besides gimick content like bosses dying to raise (which I think would be funny XD).

Sorry Shougun we're going down into the depths of the ancient city ~ Sil'dah WHM/MNK/PLD DD only.... we have 1 space left, want to heal on Thaumaturge? =P

[Alhanelem]

Thats it.. all you're in favor of is WHM staying a multi-role class where as the job systems purpose was to give a class ONE role in the party.

No, that's not what I'm in favor of. I'm in favor of all jobs having basic needs fufilled such that all classes are fully playable without complete dependence on another. If WHM can only heal, then it can't level on its own, where as *all* other jobs can. That puts CNJ/WHM at a serious disadvantage. It needs attacking ability- Not the best attacking ability, mind you- in order to be viable for all content- from solo to party to raid to PvP. If WHM has no offensive spells, then it is literally the only class that absolutely cannot level up solo. Nobody here is suggesting that damage magic be the centerpiece of WHM- however, they are necessary for good game design and balance, especially (but not solely because of) in a game that has any PvP- no matter how major or minor the PvP content is.

I explained to you already how healers don't always just heal. Many games have had them do more, and all without ruining game balance. You're just shouting out arbitrary desires with no real reason based in good gameplay mechanics.

The strange thing here is you want to nerf WHM's flexibility yet increase BLM's flexibility. This is hypocrisy- fighting to make WHM more helpless and make BLM more versatile. You're missing the point. The primary purpose of Cleric Stance was not giving the job a new role in a party- It is there for a situational benefits- It is not there as a role change button.

If you remove CNJ/WHM's attack capability, then the character creation UI needs a warning label that appears if you select CNJ stating "Warning: this class cannot be used for solo play Be sure to find an adventuring companion immediately if you wish to start as this class."

[Shougun]

Sorry Shougun we're going down into the depths of the ancient city ~ Sil'dah WHM/MNK/PLD DD only.... we have 1 space left, want to heal on Thaumaturge? =P

!!! I always wanted to heal on THM! XD

Actually.. once I was on THM in my "im in a noob PUG" set up so when I went into a dungeon I forgot and people started to wonder how I was curing and raising..

Then I was like oh yeah I just got stuck doing 40 Ifrit runs back to back and forgot what class I was...

So I've done that lol

Just as an aside, I am excited to see quake - it has always looked epic >.>

[Radacci]

I'm saying because of the wheel and because it is divided between CNJ and THM, that CNJ can out damage THM on stone weak monsters. I've been a fully geared BLM (double melds and higher) out damaged on stone weak monsters by a healing geared white mage. Of course there are like 3 stone weak monsters in the whole game.

What I was saying is if there are bosses weak to stone, they can usurp a BLM. If you need to DD the boss just bring WHM's no point to bring a BLM because if things go to shit you can heal and raise and stoneskin forever.

So I dont want that to happen. So either no boss should ever be weak to stone, or there needs to be very interesting mechanics in place for each stone weak boss like I exampled cannons on the battlefield charged by BLM's thunder - that then deal high non elemental damage. (Kinsey example is that a bunch of side monsters the BLM needs to destroy in great swathes, weak to fire would work nicely there lol)

CNJ/WHM should never lose its DD - I just dont want it to become a main DD.

Why is it a problem that CNJ/WHM can out damage a BLM on 3 mobs in the game then?
a GLD/PLD could out damage a BLM if mob isn't weak vs any of BLM spells; Even more so if it's resistant to all spells.

MNK, DRG etc arn't welcome in many parties, cause everyone wanna stack BLM, so it would be about time, there was a fight where BLM is left out

And Black Mages should, and probably will, get this post level 50. We're only mid-level at the moment, which is why blm feels a bit 'lack luster' to some. They want to rain holy terror down from the skies, but if they had that ability mid-level, what the heck could SE give them at true 'end level' cap that wouldn't just blow the game balance. I'd love Black mage getting and 'umbral spike' type of spell that is basically a cheap, low damage dart they could have. Maybe if combo'd with another umbral dd spell, it could bio or something. But this is probably a 'post' level 50 addition.

Also, while this is speculation, I do believe that the 'Ancient Magics'...ALL of them, will belong to Black Mage. (I'd explain my logic behind this but it's not really that important) Basically, I just don't see SE giving White Mage Quake, Flood or Tornado...but instead, bigger and better party buffs and heals, maybe 1-2 more damage dealing LIGHT-based spells...these will further separate it from it's base class of CNJ and def. from Black Mage. At any rate, even though I believe CNJ/WHM should keep their current Stone/Aero tiers of spells, I think it also is best if the Ancient Magics are Black Mage, and I think it is easy to create lore and story that support this...

Basically, Black Mages need to wait a bit longer, but I'm positive you will get a better mix of what you want without compromising CNJ WHM. This is why I'm in camp 'Don't touch my CNJ/WHM bro'

we shouldn't have to wait for god (Yoshi) knows how long, for cap increase, for Jobs to blossom.
I think BLM should be fully Umbral, and CNJ fully elemental.
THM could become BLM burst damage, necro dot/debuff. CNJ= Geomancer or WHM
GEO would get Ancient Element spells, and WHM would get heal/buff spells. BLM ancient Umbral spells. Elemental spells could be CNJ specific, and WHM can't use them.

No, that's not what I'm in favor of. I'm in favor of all jobs having basic needs fufilled such that all classes are fully playable without complete dependence on another. If WHM can only heal, then it can't level on its own, where as *all* other jobs can. That puts CNJ/WHM at a serious disadvantage. It needs attacking ability- Not the best attacking ability, mind you- in order to be viable for all content- from solo to party to raid to PvP. If WHM has no offensive spells, then it is literally the only class that absolutely cannot level up solo. Nobody here is suggesting that damage magic be the centerpiece of WHM- however, they are necessary for good game design and balance, especially (but not solely because of) in a game that has any PvP- no matter how major or minor the PvP content is.

I explained to you already how healers don't always just heal. Many games have had them do more, and all without ruining game balance. You're just shouting out arbitrary desires with no real reason based in good gameplay mechanics.

The strange thing here is you want to nerf WHM's flexibility yet increase BLM's flexibility. This is hypocrisy- fighting to make WHM more helpless and make BLM more versatile. You're missing the point. The primary purpose of Cleric Stance was not giving the job a new role in a party- It is there for a situational benefits- It is not there as a role change button.

If you remove CNJ/WHM's attack capability, then the character creation UI needs a warning label that appears if you select CNJ stating "Warning: this class cannot be used for solo play Be sure to find an adventuring companion immediately if you wish to start as this class."

If WHM can't lv on it's own, play as CNJ instead Classes were meant to be solo, Job party.
If you're in party to heal, you're WHM, if you're in party to damage, go CNJ or THM/BLM; That's how i'd wanna see it. You forfeit the class' ability to cross class, to become specialized in a job. If WHM could use strong astral spells, it would out damage BLM in whatever that's weak vs astral, which would still annoy people, that want BLM to out damage WHM in everything. WHM can already heal and buff, why should it have atk spells too? BLM can DD, but not heal, so that's unfair; but that's how Job system works.
WHM is the only heal-centric class also, and you could say Bard wouldn't be able to solo either. So if WHM/BRD can't solo, then play CNJ/ARC? I wouldn't want jobs to make classes Obsolete anyways.

FFXIV offers the ability to be any class/job on one char, so you can effectively pick whatever role you want, in any situation; so there's no purpose for WHM to be multi functional; having DD, heals, buffs, while BLM is only DD.
The problem isn't CNJ having elemental/attack spells, the problem is WHM having them. They could introduce some Astral Mage to get such skill set instead

[Altena]

[whoopeeragon]

I didn't see a point to the topic in the first place.

[Thebard]

All these people wanting to "that" job from ffxi circa 2005 but not comming out and saying it is really quite sad.

[Mychael]

Either way, you are still gimping 1 side of the wheel by giving the spells to a main healing class.

For the nine billionth time, >>>CONJURER<<< is not a "healing class."

>>>White mage<<< is a healing job, which happens to use Conjurer as its base class.

Conjurer is a basic job that can (and hopefully will) branch in other directions. You're asking SE to take those possibilities away.

What part of that is so hard to understand?

Lol I'm surprised of those so against the idea on this.

WHM cannot be main DD but yet WHM has DD spells - so SE has to keep the wheel down on EG content, as there is no way i'd be ok for the WHM DDing over the BLM and when you use the wheel that would happen (and it appears SE agrees since nothing EG is really weak to stone, or any element really).

WHM doesn't have DD spells. CNJ does. WHM gets them by extension. If this was the argument, I'd be okay with it:

- Remove non white magic spells from white mage, but leave it in CNJ (and give White mage white magic DD)

Or better yet, make the WHM soul stone have the opposite effect of Cleric Stance, i.e. WHMs will still have stone and aero, but they'll suck.

The underlying issue, though, is that people are dissatisfied with BLM. And there are a plethora of ways SE could overcome that, without taking ANYTHING from CNJ/WHM. But the real problem is, the OP didn't call this topic "How to make BLM a more balanced DD." It's "Removing elemental nukes from WHM"