Removing elemental nukes from WHM

[Alaltus]

Lol I'm surprised of those so against the idea on this.

WHM cannot be main DD but yet WHM has DD spells - so SE has to keep the wheel down on EG content, as there is no way i'd be ok for the WHM DDing over the BLM and when you use the wheel that would happen (and it appears SE agrees since nothing EG is really weak to stone, or any element really).

So rather Altena said hey why not give them a DD spell that wont be a problem. And everyone is raging at original lore even though Yoshida has already retconed the hell out of lore.. No such thing as original lore now lol.

Beyond that there where also suggestions to:

- Remove non white magic spells from white mage
- Leave the DD elemental spells with white mage but also give it to black mage (so black mage could still out DD white mage)

Its a one sided argument from the get go thats why, the op entitled the thread that way. I could care less if White Mage gets locked out of wind/earth/water nukes. What i disagree with is the kneejerk reaction of players to cling to all the elements because SE failed to make a well balanced BLM without them. Its far from impossible to do SE just focused far too much on utility and with such a small spell list. It had very little to do with the elements themselves, yours or the enemies.

I can accept Conjurer losing its elemental nukes but i would hope and expect for some significant elemental buffs to take their place, not just stoneskin and blink. Furthermore if Thaumaturge/Black Mage can have all the elemental nukes then Conjurer can have buffs in the form of all the elements as well. As was roughly said earlier Conjurer can focus on appealing to the elementals for aid and Thaumaturge can focus on angering the elementals to unleash their wrath (if i remember the lore right on FFXIV Black Magic) That would fall neatly into place with the lore that i've read so far.

Though as i've said on other threads i would like to see the class and job systems seperated so that Jobs can be attached to more than just the 1 singular class we've seen so far.

[dbrewer225]

hmmm all these threads about whm and the nukes. i think yoshida is pretty much gonna stay the way it is. we can argue this this till the lord himself comes back but in the end, yoshida is the deciding factor on this one. so people need to adjust to the new system or get left behind. dont know why people are afraid of change.

[Shougun]

Its a one sided argument from the get go thats why, the op entitled the thread that way. I could care less if White Mage gets locked out of wind/earth/water nukes. What i disagree with is the kneejerk reaction of players to cling to all the elements because SE failed to make a well balanced BLM without them. Its far from impossible to do SE just focused far too much on utility and with such a small spell list. It had very little to do with the elements themselves, yours or the enemies.

I can accept Conjurer losing its elemental nukes but i would hope and expect for some significant elemental buffs to take their place, not just stoneskin and blink. Furthermore if Thaumaturge/Black Mage can have all the elemental nukes then Conjurer can have buffs in the form of all the elements as well. As was roughly said earlier Conjurer can focus on appealing to the elementals for aid and Thaumaturge can focus on angering the elementals to unleash their wrath (if i remember the lore right on FFXIV Black Magic) That would fall neatly into place with the lore that i've read so far.

Though as i've said on other threads i would like to see the class and job systems seperated so that Jobs can be attached to more than just the 1 singular class we've seen so far.

Well if they give BLM some dark spells that can out damage WHM on a stone weak monster then w.e lol. But since element weak monsters take like 2x damage.. I dont know how they would make it balanced like that.

Its why I see that they have developed themselves into a corner on that.

And honestly turning WHM into holy damage sounds like a good idea for future balance. BLM, your right doesnt need the wheel - but he does need to be able to consistently deal damage as thats all he has. If WHM can deal more damage (to stone or aero weak monsters) and support a whole party (the only full support at the moment) - thats horrible balance, that has nothing with sticking with the times.

It gets confusing because there are like solid 5 suggestions going around so when offering one it might sound like all of the above or none (and some of the suggestions developed over time).

[Kinseykinz]

For 15 min DH runs, it is faster to stack CNJ/WHM due to Aero (for ogre specifically).

I am not saying CNJ/WHM can't do damage, but the elements will indeed be gimped if they need to balance a healing & nuking job with a flat out nuker.

WHM shouldn't have the same potential a BLM does, and while it is true that they don't on most end game content, they still tie up 50% of the "elemental tree", hence gimping those elements with the requirement of having party healing abilities tied in with DD.

Kinsey - I will call it a Wheel all I like, people including yourself know what I have been referring to, so it's just a weak pry at a pathetic argument about semantics.

Regardless how the "elemental wheel" (come at me) is constructed, currently the BLM line of spells are more flexible and powerful then those on the WHM skill set.

Once again if you read my OP, and following replies, you will notice that I am asking for ideas / discussion in order to fix the current issue of a lack luster elemental wheel, and a boring job (BLM), and I am yet to actually see ideas or compromises that would effectively improve the current issue.

You throw my opinion back in my face, and I will continue to throw yours. Once you come up with a compromise that would improve the issue that is stated in the OP (BLM being boring, lack of elemental affinity), I will take your posts with a grain of salt.

When you have some creative input, then I will listen.

I've explained nicely, and I've explained snarky...you refuse to listen or reason. Nothing changes the fact that you simply want brown and green pixels coming out of your hands and somehow think that will make Black Mage more exciting...it won't. Period.

Also, White Mage does not have the overall damage potential of Black Mage...and the conjecture that SE is going to lock Black Mages out of battles due to a big boss mob being 'lightning resistant' or 'stone weak' is silly. Sure, one day they might introduce stone weak bosses. Willing to bet money Monks will own that mob on DD, WHM will STILL be healing (throwing out stone as able) and Black Mages might be on Sleep patrol or killing adds that are NOT stone weak. Just because a mob is weak to stone...or Air doesn't mean BLM won't damage it well...nor does it mean they NEED those spells...nor do they need to be optimal at all times to be effective. The other damage dealers aren't optimal for every fight either...why does Black Mage deserve special treatment? (And yes, I'm totally aware that Monks whine when parties don't use them on battles...and Dragoons get pissy when they aren't the top sought out job...but really, everyone doesn't get everything all the time...if we did, it'd be one boring game.)

As to the elemental Triangles and relationships...when you call it a wheel you do confuse people because they think all 6 Elemental spells are related to each other and so in theory are from the same school. But they are NOT all related to each other and they don't belong to the same school...no matter how much you wish it to be so.

PS: @ Shougun It might not have been optimal, but I totally could kill pigs and wolves on my THM/BLM...so really what's your point? A CNJ/WHM does it a little more efficiently and you get all upset? Wow, they can cream a couple mobs in one less cast than you....by the 12 we must fix that!.

[Alhanelem]

All that does is bring up yet another balance flaw.... WHM shouldn't be able abilities to increase their Attack M potency at all.

Who died and had you make the rules? WHM can be anything they (SE) want it to be. And if you think all WHM has ever done in Final Fantasy is heal, you're dead wrong. Perhaps they didn't use wind and earth elements, mind you. But WHMs have been known for killing evil beings and undead. FFXI's WHM was the worst at this of any form of WHM, in all actuality. Also there is tons of precedent for healers that also can fight back in general fantasy terms:

WoW: priest had the shadow tree which enhanced offensive capability.
Fire Emblem had multiple healing classes that could also wield weapons or damage magic: War Monk (aka War Priest) and trickster whom wield staves (healing 'weapons" in the series)
Dungeons & Dragons (both online and tabletop) had clerics- Whom have some proficency with certain weapons- by way of Feats and/or subclassing, you could create what were commonly known as "Battle Clerics" who could fight as well as heal (Paladins in the game are similar, except with more fighting ability and less magic ability). Or you could make a Chaotic Evil aligned cleric- This transforms all Cure Wounds spells into Create Wounds spells and Heal into Harm.

*cues joke about the guy the WHM killed being the "who"*

it should unequip soul of the WHM and become a CNJ to get its Attack M Potency.

You can't do this in the middle of a fight. Why change jobs anyway when you can simply temporarily activate a stance?

Again, as I explained before, CNJ/WHM get these spells for solo and PvP viability. That's also pretty much the only reason WHM had any damage magic at all in FFXI. If the only thing you can do is healing, that leads to a very dull class that people only play out of necessity, not because it's fun to play. Obviously other classes are capable of more damage, but it's there in a pinch if you really need it. Also, your reasoning behind your statement is flawed, because jobs only add capabilities to a class- they don't remove anything except the ability to sub abilities from any other class. So whatever attack magic potency CNJ has, WHM inherits.

Just because you want the job to be singular in purpose doesn't mean everyone else does. Open the mind, think outside the box.

[Shougun]

PS: @ Shougun It might not have been optimal, but I totally could kill toads around Treespeak on my BLM/THM too...so really what's your point? A CNJ/WHM does it a little more efficiently and you get all upset? Wow, they can cream a couple mobs in one less cast than you....by the 12 we must fix that!.

I dont get the first part, BLM rape toads because they are weak to lightning. And yes I would be upset if CNJ/WHM is a better DD on -any- content besides gimick content like bosses dying to raise (which I think would be funny XD).

You cant have the best healer and the best DD packed into one class. If no boss is ever weak to stone then I guess it doesnt really matter for the BLM - because the BLM has better combo DD spells. But if any boss is weak to stone then WHM will certainly out DD BLM - even if the boss has mechanics for BLM to work in its still not ok.

[Kinseykinz]

I dont get the first part, BLM rape toads because they are weak to lightning. And yes I would be upset if CNJ/WHM is a better DD on -any- content besides gimick content like bosses dying to raise (which I think would be funny XD).

Sorry it's late and I used the wrong mob as an example...I just remembered you said toad, my bad. I was trying to point out that there are general world mobs that yes, are weak to stone or air, but you can still effectively kill them as THM/BLM.

And again, the stone weakness thing...very very situational. And if SE ever designed a battle boss that was 'stone' or 'air' weak, I am positive that Monk would be the >DD not White Mage. White Mage would still be healing but would of course toss out the occasional appropriate nuke (just like they do now). It would be SE's job to make sure however, that Black Mages were still viable in the battle. That is on them not me...but I have faith in them being able to develop battle content that even if it wasn't Black Mage optimal, it would be Black Mage doable. So far, ALL endgame content could effectively use Black Mage.

[Shougun]

Sorry it's late and I used the wrong mob as an example...I just remembered you said toad, my bad. I was trying to point out that there are general world mobs that yes, are weak to stone or air, but you can still effectively kill them as THM/BLM.

And again, the stone weakness thing...very very situational. And if SE ever designed a battle boss that was 'stone' or 'air' weak, I am positive that 1. Monk would be the >DD not White Mage. White Mage would still be healing but would of course toss out the occasional appropriate nuke (just like they do now). It would be SE's job to make sure however, that Black Mages were still viable in the battle. That is on them not me...but I have faith in them being able to develop battle content that even if it wasn't Black Mage optimal, it would be Black Mage doable. So far, ALL endgame content could effectively use Black Mage.

Honestly I dont care if the elemental wheel is dvided so long as healer doesnt get mistaken as main DD. And yeah monk would probably go ape shit lol.

If exactly as you say BLM are still desired for the fight because of some weird mechanic like machines being charged by BLM thunder and then fires high damage, or massive fire spam. I could live with it, but it needs to be designed in there.

I believe BLM still needs a non elemental nuke for the moments when his elements are being resisted, but that's all in due time I guess. Specially with how the class/job stuff is structured atm and his fire/ice elements being both aoe. I'm hoping sooner then later though.

In WoW priests can go DD but they need different gear and a whole talent tree difference that can't be changed except for in town. So it was a dedicated choice to go DD, not a willy nilly switch (though usually WHM isnt as good as a DD as shadow priest, only on stone weak monsters - which is why I said I dont want to see WHM willy nilly into top DD on stone weak bosses).

[Alhanelem]

You cant have the best healer and the best DD packed into one class.

No one is suggesting that. It is the combination of all a job's abilities that define it.

Take PvP as an example, as it is the main reason for any non-DPS-focused class to have any damage capability- All classes need to be "viable" in it. CNJ/WHM needs some damage abilities to be fully viable. You can cure yourself and stay alive til you run out of MP (and pray someone else comes along to kill them for you) but that doesn't win a fight. No, you damage them when you can and heal yourself when you can- A fight will take you a little longer, but as long as you can win, that's all that matters. BLM wins the fight by nuking as hard as it can. WHM wins the fight by avoiding death while chipping away at the opponent. It's like the tortoise and the hare- Fast as you can vs slow and steady.

[Shougun]

No one is suggesting that. It is the combination of all a job's abilities that define it.

Take PvP as an example, as it is the main reason for any non-DPS-focused class to have any damage capability- All classes need to be "viable" in it. CNJ/WHM needs some damage abilities to be fully viable. You can cure yourself and stay alive til you run out of MP (and pray someone else comes along to kill them for you) but that doesn't win a fight. No, you damage them when you can and heal yourself when you can- A fight will take you a little longer, but as long as you can win, that's all that matters. BLM wins the fight by nuking as hard as it can. WHM wins the fight by avoiding death while chipping away at the opponent. It's like the tortoise and the hare- Fast as you can vs slow and steady.

Oh I'm defintely not aganist the WHM being able to defend itself - soloing with no DD spells.. so sucky be easier to level a alchemist solo.

I'm saying because of the wheel and because it is divided between CNJ and THM, that CNJ can out damage THM on stone weak monsters. I've been a fully geared BLM (double melds and higher) out damaged on stone weak monsters by a healing geared white mage. Of course there are like 3 stone weak monsters in the whole game.

What I was saying is if there are bosses weak to stone, they can usurp a BLM. If you need to DD the boss just bring WHM's no point to bring a BLM because if things go to shit you can heal and raise and stoneskin forever.

So I dont want that to happen. So either no boss should ever be weak to stone, or there needs to be very interesting mechanics in place for each stone weak boss like I exampled cannons on the battlefield charged by BLM's thunder - that then deal high non elemental damage. (Kinsey example is that a bunch of side monsters the BLM needs to destroy in great swathes, weak to fire would work nicely there lol)

CNJ/WHM should never lose its DD - I just dont want it to become a main DD.